Cycling question (urgent)

[Smaug]

Smaug's vague advice for doing water changes is only meant to stir up trouble.

The advise to use time proven water changes is never meant to stir up trouble.

 

[MitchM]

Ammonia is toxic to fish.
You don't know either the temperature or the PH of the water.

There is no reason not to use ammonia only.

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[Marshall]

Sorry Marshall, I don't agree with using sacrificial fish. 37 cents each or not.
Ammonia is cheap and you don't kill fish in order to get your pond cycled.



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I don't kill animals. I put them in there in hopes of them survivng. If I had a pond that was 40 years into the cycle I would still say the 37 centers are shit quality because they are abused by the sellers and therefore they are very likely to die no matter what you put them in. Also I am not putting anything from a bottle in my pond when I can just use fish. The first pond was stocked with 8 koi/ golds on the day I set it up and guess where all eight of them are ? Alive and in the same pond as I speak.

 

[Marshall]

hopefully the feeder comets didn't pass any parasites or other issues to your koi.....

I hope not too but they were not in there very long and the pond is 2100 gallons which should be a large enough amount to dilute anything they may have carried in there hopefully but some stuff is pretty nasty so I am gonna keep a close eye on the little guys for the next few days

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Since some of the fish (and water) of the old pond have been introduced to the new pond you likely already have some pathogenic organisms in the new pond. As long as the fish are healthy (not stressed) you won't know that they (the pathogens) are there.

 

[MitchM]

I don't kill animals. I put them in there in hopes of them survivng. If I had a pond that was 40 years into the cycle I would still say the 37 centers are shit quality because they are abused by the sellers and therefore they are very likely to die no matter what you put them in. Also I am not putting anything from a bottle in my pond when I can just use fish. The first pond was stocked with 8 koi/ golds on the day I set it up and guess where all eight of them are ? Alive and in the same pond as I speak.

I'm surprised that you do not practice fishless cycling.

The pure ammonia in a bottle is the same ammonia that is excreted from the gills of fish.....NH3.
Fish may or may not survive the cycling process, but none of us know if the fish that have survived have suffered gill damage.
The fish may have reduced gill function as a result 25%...50%...who knows? We only know if they die.
There is no benefit to using fish to cycle an aquarium or pond instead of bottled pure ammonia.
Buying sacrificial fish from a retailer only gives them an incentive to continue the practice.

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[Marshall]

Since some of the fish (and water) of the old pond have been introduced to the new pond you likely already have some pathogenic organisms in the new pond. As long as the fish are healthy (not stressed) you won't know that they (the pathogens) are there.

True but I was alluding to the fact that whatever was introduced came from a pond full of healthy fish so if there was something in the old pond it was not hurting the fish even at 100% and since only a couple liters at best of water was moved it would have to survive a dilution of roughly 5,000 to 1. Basically I ain't gonna lose sleep because as I have stated many time before I always think nature is much more clever than I am ans has been managing these systems long before I came into the picture so I let nature do the work and so far I have not been let down.

 

[Marshall]

I'm surprised that you do not practice fishless cycling.

The pure ammonia in a bottle is the same ammonia that is excreted from the gills of fish.....NH3.
Fish may or may not survive the cycling process, but none of us know if the fish that have survived have suffered gill damage.
The fish may have reduced gill function as a result 25%...50%...who knows? We only know if they die.
There is no benefit to using fish to cycle an aquarium or pond instead of bottled pure ammonia.
Buying sacrificial fish from a retailer only gives them an incentive to continue the practice.

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If ammonia is what damages the gills and a fresh water fill has none then I would surmise only the fish could add ammonia and since I already do water maintenance changes I doubt a handful of tiny fish are gonna cause a massive outbreak within days of being in 2100 gallons of ammonia free water.

 

[Marshall]

I think I will close this convo so I can move on to more urgent and immediate projects as it has turned into a debate really which is not exactly going to help anything considering the damages if any have been done and whether right or wrong my actions have been taken and the consequences whether good or bad will be forthcoming and I will update the status as time goes on in another post. Thanks for all the help though especially @MitchM @Meyer Jordan @Smaug and as always my friend @Dave 54

 

[MitchM]

You may very well be right that they will survive in a pond of that size.
The issue is where do you make the determination as to what size pond, how many fish, how large are the fish, what are the water's chemical and temperature conditions, how much other organic matter is available to decay, before a person decides when fishless cycling is best?
I hope you are monitoring the ammonia level.

10 fish at 37 cents is $3.70. I'll bet that a small bottle of ammonina costs half that in your area.

This thread topic was regarding pond cycling. I thought this was relevant information.


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[Marshall]

You may very well be right that they will survive in a pond of that size.
The issue is where do you make the determination as to what size pond, how many fish, how large are the fish, what are the water's chemical and temperature conditions, how much other organic matter is available to decay, before a person decides when fishless cycling is best?
I hope you are monitoring the ammonia level.

10 fish at 37 cents is $3.70. I'll bet that a small bottle of ammonina costs half that in your area.

This thread topic was regarding pond cycling. I thought this was relevant information.


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It is very relevant and that's why I specifically posted a thank you to you and the other commentators it's just that I have decided to take the fish only route as I am personally confident in it's chance for success. Also even though a bottle of chem may cost less it does not come with 10 fish... That was the idea after all to both cycle and have 10 new fish pals in the pond to stock it. Thats why I said I hope they all survive so they can become the first residents of the new pond.
PS as far as making that call it is the way I learn. Through trial and error but obviously I did ask for advise and was told to move the fish back (which I did) so I don't what else to call it but learning how to run a pond and experience is always valuable.

 

[Smaug]

Ammonia is toxic to fish.
You don't know either the temperature or the PH of the water.

There is no reason not to use ammonia only.

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Not toxic at all if an ammonia neutralizer is used. There is no reason that a body of water can't be cycled with fish in if something like seachems pond prime is used.http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/PondPrime.html

 

[Marshall]

Not toxic at all if an ammonia neutralizer is used. There is no reason that a body of water can't be cycled with fish in if something like seachems pond prime is used.http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/PondPrime.html

That is a pretty neat product. I don't have chlorine water but I like that it can remove some metals.

 

[MitchM]

Not toxic at all if an ammonia neutralizer is used. There is no reason that a body of water can't be cycled with fish in if something like seachems pond prime is used.http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/PondPrime.html

Using Prime in a pond that does not have a mature biofilm will cause swings in the ammonia level and should only be used in emergency situations.

A pond is going to be enjoyed for years. What is the rush for adding fish?

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[Smaug]

Using Prime in a pond that does not have a mature biofilm will cause swings in the ammonia level and should only be used in emergency situations.

A pond is going to be enjoyed for years. What is the rush for adding fish?

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Never had that problem. Probably because it doesn't actually change the ammonia readings at all,it just makes the ammonia non toxic.