CW's Back Yard Water Garden Begins!

[GBBUDD]

Oh well. Can't go back now. I ordered my liner large, so I'll see what I can make work when it shows up. Maybe if I'll buy another strip of liner and try to pull off a massive seam. Yikes!

Usually you'd be right but that's the beauty of epdm . when you are rocking in the pond especially toward the top / surface area you can fold the rubber in and back fill up to your boulders or take out more material. it's very forgiving . and your right be careful about making vertical walls too tall it can be a nightmare to make your walls secure and the taller the more difficult it can be. Not to mention the more dangerous as if your wall fell in and someone was in the pond they could get held under.

 

[GBBUDD]

if you go to my blog i have the fish area shown as it was being constructed there is no Double wall height per say just the one shelf in height

 

[Lisak1]

You can still do your edges the way @addy1 drew it to make your life so much easier and to give you a better looking edge treatment with lots of options for finishing. Just dig an additional shallow shelf all the way around the pond. (I know... easy for me to say!)

The first shelf should be about 1/3 as deep as your edging rocks are tall and wide enough so they can sit securely on the shelf. That way you have 1/3 of the rock under water. The liner then comes up behind the rock, you fold it down so it's just below the edge of the top of the rock, and you put mulch, plants, gravel, etc and sandwich that liner between the back of the rock and the landscaping. It's simple and looks so much better than a ring of rocks all around the outside edge. It's one of the most common mistakes people make when building a pond.

It's similar to using rocks in your landscape - you never want a rock just sitting on top of a garden bed or in the landscape. You want to dig it down so it looks like it belongs there. I do a similar thing with big pots - dig them down and they just look more "settled".

 

[Jhn]

Good call. That makes me think of another option. Parts of my top shelf are wide enough that I can probably arrange the boulders so that there is space behind them. but inside the liner, that I can fill with gravel and use for planting. And then just plant the heck out of the edge with terrestrial plants and things that will grow over the edge of the rocks to soften it up and give it some more life.

Using the top shelf as the lilly shelf would also keep the center area more open as it wouldn't need to support much plant life. Great idea. Thanks for this.

Also, you work with rock a lot in your job right? I am so intimidated right now by the rocking process. My soil got sandier as we went deeper, so that bottom shelf is not too sturdy. Thinking I need to go big with rocks down there and treat it as a legit retaining wall.

My excavator was using a JD 35g, and we actually had to dig that bottom shelf by hand because he couldn't reach his bucket down there well enough to get clean scoops at it.

The idea of getting big rocks down there when his machine couldn't reach makes me think they either have to go by hand or I have to get a huge machine in here to place them.

Yes, I work with rock/boulders in my work. The mini ex will work to set rock down in the hole even if the bucket can’t reach to the bottom. Get yourself a set of endless loop straps, can use these to set large rock down in the bottom, most buckets have a hook or something to hook them on. This is a better way to go when you don’t want to rip anything your setting it on anyhow. Thumbs on excavators tend to hit things you don’t want them to, rocks slip out, etc. That excavator should be able to pick up rocks easily in the 800-1600lb. range (these are big rocks and one rock should reach to the bottom of edge of the lower shelf 22” up))and set them or get a slightly bigger mini ex if that one is already gone. If you have someone that is experienced running the excavator it shouldn’t be an issue, they should know how to safely set heavy objects with out tipping the excavator.

 

[Jhn]

Here is what we are talking about with digging a shallow shelf to hide the liner. The first row or two or three are under water.

Another way to hide rock, liner and make a pond look more natural is with dead wood and plants growing at the pond edge like in the pic below. Yes there are rocks hidden by those plants....

 

[brokensword]

I would seriously do what addy has drawn; I didn't have access to this forum upon my initial dig and regretted the fact I could see my liner for almost 8 years. I did end up finding natural covers with plants, but it takes time for them to grow in and well, spring always was very unforgiving of my mistake. You know, when you build something and you KNOW where the mistakes are even though no one else does...well, I surely fixed all that with my expansion.

You state you have lots of extra liner--that's the smartest thing you've done yet. Use it; dig that shallow shelf, it doesn't have to me more than 4" wide but don't make it more than 3" down or so. This gives you tons of options, plants included. If you don't want the slate type perimeter, you don't have to do that but you can put any size rock now (even allowing it to cantilever though I wouldn't). If you know you're going to use larger rocks, say 8-12" size, make this VERY SHALLOW shelf that wide. It also allows you to mix the size rocks you use to make it less uniform. You can add gravel as you suggested, and plant marginals as their feet will be in the water but stems close enough to the surface to thrive.

This one piece of advice, in my opinion, really separates the amateurs from the pros; hide the liner if at all possible if you want it to look most natural. Best thing I did upon expansion.

 

[GBBUDD]

Biggest objectives in a natural looking pond.
1.Hiding the liner is surely number 1 in looking natural. No matter how well the rest Is executed if liner shows everywhere it just falls short.

2.everything being even and round , a pond with uniform 12 inch wide shelves that are down 12 inches deep. Make your shelves vary in heights and widths make the pond irregularly shaped. Vary the rock sizes every where. Even in the bottom where your screaned gravel say one inch or so is to go throw a 4 inch a 12 inch at the bottom vary everything. Break up all rock with some logs and or stumps

3. The volcano waterfall if water is coming out of a 4 foot tall mound, its next to impossible to make this look realistic. Unless you add red lights to it at night. Don't make your falls all point and drop the same directions and heights . Have your 12 inch drop land into a puddle that runs to a little current area even bubbles slipping down the falls can be eye candy and keep the mind entertained for hours.

 

[Lisak1]

Nailed it.

 

[combatwombat]

Really appreciate everyone's input. Has given me a ton to think about while I calculate rock and wait for my liner to show up. I went and bought a rotary laser transit from Harbor Freight and set it up last night to better visualize my water level within the current excavation. And I'm feeling a lot better today. I think it's all going to work out. Not without a little more effort digging and building up a few edges, but it's going to work.

As for the shallow rock shelf, I'm going to play the "wait and see" game. I think the direction will become a lot more clear when I get the liner in and start setting rocks. No matter how I accomplish it, the end goal is "no visible liner."

I am mostly just coming to terms with the fact that I need to tackle big rocks head on. And about 30 tons of them! My family will (hopefully) use this pond for a bit of summer recreation. From a stability standpoint, big rocks are more sturdy and safe than small ones. My daughter is fearless and will test the limits of anything she encounters, so it is critical that every rock gets set very carefully and deliberately.

 

[GBBUDD]

use this pond for a bit of summer recreation. From a stability standpoint, big rocks are more sturdy and safe than small ones. My daughter is fearless and will test the limits of anything she encounters, so it is critical that every rock gets set very carefully and deliberately.
[/QUOTE]
While big rocks can be set and locked a bit easier they can also create much larger concerns if they do shift. While I am pro large rocks it can be a lot less work or it can create a lot more work depending on your design. Other then them shifting and rolling onto someone and holding them underwater theres all the spaces between the rocks where a curious hand can go and get stuck or a foot slipped between with disastrous results. . Filling those voids is crucial so there are no potential issues.

 

[combatwombat]

@GBBUDD: Yes, good call. The plan is to fill voids behind/between rocks with gravel. And I'll be building mostly with local basalt, which is relatively angular and lends itself well to wall use.

 

[combatwombat]

More paint on the ground means more digging. Slight adjustments to the plan. Deep area is getting bigger. Planning additional small waterfall. New estimated pond size = 11,000 gallons. That's a big tub of water. Good thing I made my intake bay really big.

Starting to see where true pond builders earn their fees. My waterfalls will be very small, but trying to picture how they'll flow and fall into the pond ahead of time is very difficult for me.

 

[TheFishGuy]

More paint on the ground means more digging. Slight adjustments to the plan. Deep area is getting bigger. Planning additional small waterfall. New estimated pond size = 11,000 gallons. That's a big tub of water. Good thing I made my intake bay really big.

Starting to see where true pond builders earn their fees. My waterfalls will be very small, but trying to picture how they'll flow and fall into the pond ahead of time is very difficult for me.

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Wow! that is sure a big tub of water!

Although every other picture makes it look just that big, this picture for some reason looks like an 8 by 11 aquascape pond for some reason, It also makes your fence look 2 feet tall though, just a mini backyard, totally not a huge pond.....

 

[combatwombat]

@TheFishGuy: The pictures don’t really do it justice. It’s a bit overwhelming thinking about what it’s going to take to finish.

Probably going to rent a machine and hire some help to set all the rock.

 

[TheFishGuy]

@TheFishGuy: The pictures don’t really do it justice. It’s a bit overwhelming thinking about what it’s going to take to finish.

Probably going to rent a machine and hire some help to set all the rock.

Yeah, when I was posting pics of my 2 1/2 foot excavation, it constantly looked like it was three inches deep,

If you hire a machine we better see some nice big rocks