I've sold 2 homes with ponds and bought several fixers.
It's repeated often that ponds lower the value of a home. In my experience it's only crap and/or poorly maintained ponds that lower values. Beautiful, clean ponds and easy maintenance features that can be demonstrated increase value and by a lot. But it may depend on the market. The higher the house value the more value a top of the line pond adds. I'd would say that about 80% of people looking at my houses were interested in the pond, and all offers wanted the pond kept. I always offer to remove the pond and landscape before closing if required. The more educated the buyers the more interest they had in the pond. One lady sat down by the pond in San Jose and didn't want to look at the rest of the house. We sat together while her husband and adult kids looked thru the house. We just talked about the pond. But her kids talked her out of it.
Anyways, to your questions. They're all answered the same way...depends on what kind of pond you want. Ponds can be super complex or super simple.
To help you research I can refine some terms. It's common to call this pond a Koi Pond by people not in the pond hobby, and even some people with ponds. When searching for info it's helpful to use more exact terms. There are no specific agreed upon definitions but if you go to say a Koi forum you'll mainly see ponds that are 4' and deeper, no rocks, no plants, big pumps and complex filters. You can be in the $300 per month range just for electric. If you go into a Koi forum and ask your question you will get a long list of things that must be done. Maybe $10-20K worth of improvements. Basically replace the pond.
But this pond is not a Koi Pond. It would in general be called a Water Garden (by me) and an Aquascape style pond specifically. Aquascape is by far the most common pond in the US. They have a specific kind of pond they build. 2' deep, lots of loose rocks over liner and a little bit of equipment like a pump and what I think they call a Bio Falls. Maybe a skimmer. Whether it actually was built by an Aquascape contractor doesn't matter. Lots of people copy it because it's the most liked style.
So if you search for Aquascape you will find a lot of detailed info on costs, care, over wintering, number and kinds of fish. There are some forums just for these specific ponds. But here are the basics...There's a huge crap storm in the DIY pond community about loose rocks, they hate them. They hate them more than taxes. What Aquascape requires, and they're up front about this, is their ponds must be drained and power wash as needed. Their guideline is at least once per year. The other big issue is depth...more on that below.
You can put Koi into any pond, that doesn't make it a Koi pond. For example, there's a single Koi in the pond. I'll bet serious cash there used to be more Koi. In a Koi Pond the owner controls the pond, in a Water Garden nature controls the pond. In general.
That's really the only maintenance these "require". But how do you feel about green water? That can occur. Removing the pine needles or just let nature do what it does? Green bottom or bright rocks? These are all options you can choose from, each with different costs.
Just for ballpark...a more hobbyist type Water Garden, maybe 3' deep, mortared rock instead of loose so the pond could be vacuumed like a swimming pool, waterfall/stream would run about $2K DIY, $5-10K by professionals. But there are almost no professionals, just tons of people who say they are. They build impressively crappy ponds. That's why Aquascape is so big, they build what build well. Just a question if you like that kind of pond.
To create a real Koi pond would be in the $5-15K range DIY and $20-30K by professionals. There are more professionals at this level, but still very hard to find. Lucky if there's 1 within 300 miles of Philly.
BTW, Aquascape gives some reasons why their ponds are 2', and the reasons all sound very logical. However, it just happens to be that in most areas 2' or less means there's no building codes involved, no fence requirements, no set back requirements. So I think that's why their ponds are normally 2' deep. So if you want a deeper pond it wouldn't hurt to call the building department for the requirements.
People freak out about the 2' depth and winter because it's a knee jerk thing that bounces around the internet. The reality is look at the size of the Koi in that pond. At least 5 years old, that's 5 winters. Bet the owners never did any kind of heater or anything. And that's true for thousands and thousands of Aquascape ponds. Yes, winter is tough on fish. Yes you can lose fish. But a lot of the fixes people say to do can also kill fish. Be careful. More myths out there than facts. The precision you were used to with the reef tank community doesn't really exist in the Water Garden community. Water Gardens are pretty forgiving, no real reason to learn lots of stuff. So myths exist in that vacuum.
What I do when buying a house is assume the worst. I assume the owners are also assuming the worst. I assume they have been told by their agent the myth "ponds lower value".
Option A. Normally I lower the offering price and waive the home inspection. To me home inspectors are worthless if you know even a little bit about construction or have someone you trust look at the property. Home inspectors don't open stuff and look inside...where 99% of problems are. Like they won't take the cover off the electrical panel to check out the wiring. You can tell instantly if it was done by a pro or a hack just by how cleanly the wires are run.
Watch a few Holmes on Homes shows about new home owners and the things inspectors miss. So whatever low price you're already thinking, knock another $5-10K off and have your agent tell their agent the reason is because the cost to remove the pond. The sellers' agent is going to be only too happy to tell the sellers "see, I told you so".
Option B. Normal offer and in the inspection say the pond has to be removed and ask for $3-5K. I think you do better with option A, but you have to be pretty sure about the condition, which it sounds like you are. People get hung up on little things like an outlet not being right. $100 to have fixed, or $10 DIY instead of knocking $5k off the price. I'll take the $5K. Sellers are funny, they'll research and clip coupons to save 10 cents on a can of tuna but not give any thought into knocking $5K off the selling price.
A home owner who's on top of their property will understand the trade offs and negotiate. Lazy owners make lazy decisions. That's their choice. Don't pay them to make their problems your problems.
The big red flag to me is that the pond isn't spotless. All that green on the bottom shouldn't be there when selling a house. Sure, it doesn't hurt the fish any. Not the point. They should have paid the $300-500 to have it cleaned. That barley ball or whatever crap thing that is shouldn't be in the pond. They should have presented you with the best possible product. They choose not to. Tells me they're not that interest in getting top dollar. Tells me there's could be issues. I'm not taking the risk without compensation.
Bottom line is imo if you get $3-10K knocked off all pond issues go away. With that you can fix all issues including having the pond removed. How much electric it cost to run the pump becomes a future choice. The cost of heating you have little choice. The choice of running a pump is a choice. Don't let the details get in the way.
It's repeated often that ponds lower the value of a home. In my experience it's only crap and/or poorly maintained ponds that lower values. Beautiful, clean ponds and easy maintenance features that can be demonstrated increase value and by a lot. But it may depend on the market. The higher the house value the more value a top of the line pond adds. I'd would say that about 80% of people looking at my houses were interested in the pond, and all offers wanted the pond kept. I always offer to remove the pond and landscape before closing if required. The more educated the buyers the more interest they had in the pond. One lady sat down by the pond in San Jose and didn't want to look at the rest of the house. We sat together while her husband and adult kids looked thru the house. We just talked about the pond. But her kids talked her out of it.
Anyways, to your questions. They're all answered the same way...depends on what kind of pond you want. Ponds can be super complex or super simple.
To help you research I can refine some terms. It's common to call this pond a Koi Pond by people not in the pond hobby, and even some people with ponds. When searching for info it's helpful to use more exact terms. There are no specific agreed upon definitions but if you go to say a Koi forum you'll mainly see ponds that are 4' and deeper, no rocks, no plants, big pumps and complex filters. You can be in the $300 per month range just for electric. If you go into a Koi forum and ask your question you will get a long list of things that must be done. Maybe $10-20K worth of improvements. Basically replace the pond.
But this pond is not a Koi Pond. It would in general be called a Water Garden (by me) and an Aquascape style pond specifically. Aquascape is by far the most common pond in the US. They have a specific kind of pond they build. 2' deep, lots of loose rocks over liner and a little bit of equipment like a pump and what I think they call a Bio Falls. Maybe a skimmer. Whether it actually was built by an Aquascape contractor doesn't matter. Lots of people copy it because it's the most liked style.
So if you search for Aquascape you will find a lot of detailed info on costs, care, over wintering, number and kinds of fish. There are some forums just for these specific ponds. But here are the basics...There's a huge crap storm in the DIY pond community about loose rocks, they hate them. They hate them more than taxes. What Aquascape requires, and they're up front about this, is their ponds must be drained and power wash as needed. Their guideline is at least once per year. The other big issue is depth...more on that below.
You can put Koi into any pond, that doesn't make it a Koi pond. For example, there's a single Koi in the pond. I'll bet serious cash there used to be more Koi. In a Koi Pond the owner controls the pond, in a Water Garden nature controls the pond. In general.
Nothing. It is what it is. There's no kind of standard. Even a leaking pond is common. There's not really any kind of test a home inspector could do and I doubt any home inspector would know anything about ponds other than adding some boiler plate to the report telling you what you already know...there's a pond in the yard and a bunch of warnings.Insomniak79 said:
You can add lots of equipment, but nothing is required. A skimmer in an Aquascape pond doesn't work super well. The shape of this pond means a skimmer would be even less effective. Lily pads make a skimmer even less useful. What I see floating on the surface is a lot of long pine needles. I have to assume the owners use a pool skimmer net to remove these as much as possible every single day. The lily pads make removal even harder. So you may not mind the look when you're shown the house, but after a few weeks you could be OMG! Whether or not the accumulation will be that bad I have no way to tell, but I have to assume the owner is removing these daily, weekly. And they're sure not going to disclose what a PITA pine needles are.Insomniak79 said:
At the Aquascape web site you can find a bunch of contractors in the Philly area. You can get some quotes on clean outs. Ballpark is $300-500 per. It's about a one day DIY job, power washer and pumps can be rented. After a couples of times you can have it down to 1/2 day if you're a worker bee. Lots of YouTube videos on this. Non-Aquascape contractors may be available too. It's all a crap shoot on who does a good job.Insomniak79 said:
That's really the only maintenance these "require". But how do you feel about green water? That can occur. Removing the pine needles or just let nature do what it does? Green bottom or bright rocks? These are all options you can choose from, each with different costs.
If it were my pond I'd rip it out and build a new one because I'm a pond hobbyist. This pond is a standard Aquascape type pond which is more of a landscape feature than what a pond hobbyist would call a pond. So it depends on what you want. I think Aquascape ponds are beautiful, love them. I just like being more involved with the pond.Insomniak79 said:
Just for ballpark...a more hobbyist type Water Garden, maybe 3' deep, mortared rock instead of loose so the pond could be vacuumed like a swimming pool, waterfall/stream would run about $2K DIY, $5-10K by professionals. But there are almost no professionals, just tons of people who say they are. They build impressively crappy ponds. That's why Aquascape is so big, they build what build well. Just a question if you like that kind of pond.
To create a real Koi pond would be in the $5-15K range DIY and $20-30K by professionals. There are more professionals at this level, but still very hard to find. Lucky if there's 1 within 300 miles of Philly.
BTW, Aquascape gives some reasons why their ponds are 2', and the reasons all sound very logical. However, it just happens to be that in most areas 2' or less means there's no building codes involved, no fence requirements, no set back requirements. So I think that's why their ponds are normally 2' deep. So if you want a deeper pond it wouldn't hurt to call the building department for the requirements.
People freak out about the 2' depth and winter because it's a knee jerk thing that bounces around the internet. The reality is look at the size of the Koi in that pond. At least 5 years old, that's 5 winters. Bet the owners never did any kind of heater or anything. And that's true for thousands and thousands of Aquascape ponds. Yes, winter is tough on fish. Yes you can lose fish. But a lot of the fixes people say to do can also kill fish. Be careful. More myths out there than facts. The precision you were used to with the reef tank community doesn't really exist in the Water Garden community. Water Gardens are pretty forgiving, no real reason to learn lots of stuff. So myths exist in that vacuum.
I would not sweat the details, you have enough to deal with.Insomniak79 said:
What I do when buying a house is assume the worst. I assume the owners are also assuming the worst. I assume they have been told by their agent the myth "ponds lower value".
Option A. Normally I lower the offering price and waive the home inspection. To me home inspectors are worthless if you know even a little bit about construction or have someone you trust look at the property. Home inspectors don't open stuff and look inside...where 99% of problems are. Like they won't take the cover off the electrical panel to check out the wiring. You can tell instantly if it was done by a pro or a hack just by how cleanly the wires are run.
Watch a few Holmes on Homes shows about new home owners and the things inspectors miss. So whatever low price you're already thinking, knock another $5-10K off and have your agent tell their agent the reason is because the cost to remove the pond. The sellers' agent is going to be only too happy to tell the sellers "see, I told you so".
Option B. Normal offer and in the inspection say the pond has to be removed and ask for $3-5K. I think you do better with option A, but you have to be pretty sure about the condition, which it sounds like you are. People get hung up on little things like an outlet not being right. $100 to have fixed, or $10 DIY instead of knocking $5k off the price. I'll take the $5K. Sellers are funny, they'll research and clip coupons to save 10 cents on a can of tuna but not give any thought into knocking $5K off the selling price.
A home owner who's on top of their property will understand the trade offs and negotiate. Lazy owners make lazy decisions. That's their choice. Don't pay them to make their problems your problems.
The big red flag to me is that the pond isn't spotless. All that green on the bottom shouldn't be there when selling a house. Sure, it doesn't hurt the fish any. Not the point. They should have paid the $300-500 to have it cleaned. That barley ball or whatever crap thing that is shouldn't be in the pond. They should have presented you with the best possible product. They choose not to. Tells me they're not that interest in getting top dollar. Tells me there's could be issues. I'm not taking the risk without compensation.
Bottom line is imo if you get $3-10K knocked off all pond issues go away. With that you can fix all issues including having the pond removed. How much electric it cost to run the pump becomes a future choice. The cost of heating you have little choice. The choice of running a pump is a choice. Don't let the details get in the way.
