concrete, ph concerns

[Marshall]

LOL
I'm not misinterpreting anything, I speak from experience. My business deals with the application of cement and I've worked with it practically every day for the last 25+ years. You tend to understand a few thing about the stuff after a while.
If there is any such thing as "normal cement" in would have to be Portland cement which is basically hydraulic cement, and I assure you it will harden underwater.
Please don't take this the wrong way, I really don't mean to be rude or condescending, but I can tell you don't really understand what you are talking about. Please do a bit of reading and research on the subject. https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei...ff&q=hydraulic+cement+vs+non-hydraulic+cement
If you order a batch of cement in a cement truck to pour a side walk or pour a foundation, or go buy a bag cement at the hardware store, they will give you hydraulic cement. "Cement that needs water to cure", and basically that's all that hydraulic cement means, as opposed to cement that absorbs CO2 out of the air to cure, which definitely would not be classified as "normal cement" anymore.

I will agree to disagree as to not muck up the waters

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I will agree to disagree as to not muck up the waters

Fine with me, but if you disagree with me you disagree the facts below. Right?


A cement is a binder, a substance that sets and hardens and can bind other materials together. The word "cement" can be traced back to the Roman term opus caementicium, used to describe masonry resembling modern concrete that was made from crushed rock with burnt lime as binder. The volcanic ash and pulverized brick supplements that were added to the burnt lime, to obtain a hydraulic binder, were later referred to as cementum, cimentum, cäment, and cement.

Cements used in construction can be characterized as being either hydraulic or non-hydraulic, depending upon the ability of the cement to set in the presence of water (see hydraulic and non-hydraulic lime plaster).

Non-hydraulic cement will not set in wet conditions or underwater; rather, it sets as it dries and reacts with carbon dioxide in the air. It can be attacked by some aggressive chemicals after setting.

Hydraulic cements (e.g., Portland cement) set and become adhesive due to a chemical reaction between the dry ingredients and water. The chemical reaction results in mineral hydrates that are not very water-soluble and so are quite durable in water and safe from chemical attack. This allows setting in wet condition or underwater and further protects the hardened material from chemical attack. The chemical process for hydraulic cement found by ancient Romans used volcanic ash (activated aluminium silicates[citation needed]) with lime (calcium oxide).

The most important uses of cement are as a component in the production of mortar in masonry, and of concrete, a combination of cement and an aggregate to form a strong building material.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Question. Have you ever used non-hydraulic cement, and if so for what application?

 

[Mucky_Waters]

If you do decide to carry on this conversation I won't be able to reply till later on today, I'm off to work with some hydraulic cement.

 

[Marshall]

If you do decide to carry on this conversation I won't be able to reply till later on today, I'm off to work with some hydraulic cement.

Cements used in construction can be characterized as being either hydraulic or non-hydraulic, depending upon the ability of the cement to set in the presence of water (see hydraulic and non-hydraulic lime plaster).

Non-hydraulic cement will not set in wet conditions or underwater; rather, it sets as it dries and reacts with carbon dioxide in the air. It can be attacked by some aggressive chemicals after setting.
That is basically what I said
My words exactly wer "Actually hydraulic cement does not cure by water as normal concrete does...I know msounds weird but hydraulic cement is designed so thatr it cures underwater."

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Actually hydraulic cement does not cure by water as normal concrete does..

But as Randy has shown, hydraulic cement does cure by water.

And to Guy: Regardless of what type of cement/mortar was used on these walls, it is probably OK to use the rock as long as you monitor the pond's pH to avoid any possible spikes no matter how remote the chance may be. Better to be safe.

 

[Troutredds]

Fine with me, but if you disagree with me you disagree the facts below. Right?


A cement is a binder, a substance that sets and hardens and can bind other materials together. The word "cement" can be traced back to the Roman term opus caementicium, used to describe masonry resembling modern concrete that was made from crushed rock with burnt lime as binder. The volcanic ash and pulverized brick supplements that were added to the burnt lime, to obtain a hydraulic binder, were later referred to as cementum, cimentum, cäment, and cement.

Cements used in construction can be characterized as being either hydraulic or non-hydraulic, depending upon the ability of the cement to set in the presence of water (see hydraulic and non-hydraulic lime plaster).

Non-hydraulic cement will not set in wet conditions or underwater; rather, it sets as it dries and reacts with carbon dioxide in the air. It can be attacked by some aggressive chemicals after setting.

Hydraulic cements (e.g., Portland cement) set and become adhesive due to a chemical reaction between the dry ingredients and water. The chemical reaction results in mineral hydrates that are not very water-soluble and so are quite durable in water and safe from chemical attack. This allows setting in wet condition or underwater and further protects the hardened material from chemical attack. The chemical process for hydraulic cement found by ancient Romans used volcanic ash (activated aluminium silicates[citation needed]) with lime (calcium oxide).

The most important uses of cement are as a component in the production of mortar in masonry, and of concrete, a combination of cement and an aggregate to form a strong building material.

Thanks, Mucky. That's educational for me. I now know more about the gunite concrete blown into our pond a few years ago...

 

[cas]

@Troutredds , so that is what your pond looked like before all of your landscaping. Love seeing it.

 

[Marshall]

But as Randy has shown, hydraulic cement does cure by water.

And to Guy: Regardless of what type of cement/mortar was used on these walls, it is probably OK to use the rock as long as you monitor the pond's pH to avoid any possible spikes no matter how remote the chance may be. Better to be safe.

Okay let me be clear "it does nopt cure by the evaporation of water which is what creates the curing process in regular concrete. Use your head for a moment "so that concrete cures by evaporating water?" well hydraulic cement cures by a chemical reaction hence it will dry UNDER WATER! but I have a major wound on my hand and could care less who takes the piss on this one.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Here's the thing Marshal. You keep using the term "normal cement" without defining what exactly you think that is. Portland cement is by far the most common type of cement in general use around the world and what most people would refer to as "normal cement". It doesn't take much research to realize that Portland cement is hydraulic cement. Forms of non-hydraulic cement were in use long before Portland (hydraulic) cement, but it has fallen out of favour except for some very specific application, most of which have indoor uses, that's why I asked you if you have ever used non-hydraulic cement before and what application. Non-hydraulic cements have become virtually obsolete due to the difficulties involved regarding the long durations required for drying and setting.You'd be hard pressed to find a place that sells non-hydraulic cement. If you go to a hardware store and ask for a bag of cement they are going to sell you a bag of Portland cement. If you specify that you want only non-hydraulic cement they are going to look at you funny and start scratching there heads because they probably really don't know the difference either, so you are not alone.
I realize that it can sometimes be an embarrassing thing to expose ones lack of understand about a particular subject over an internet forum, but rather then carry on fighting an argument that was lost from the beginning, why not think of it as a positive learning experience. Take the time with your injury to do some reading, I'm sure eventually it will all sink in.
In the meantime we all love what you are doing with your turtle rescue and I personally wish you all the best with that. I too am a turtle aficionado so at least we have that in common.

 

[Marshall]

Here's the thing Marshal. You keep using the term "normal cement" without defining what exactly you think that is. Portland cement is by far the most common type of cement in general use around the world and what most people would refer to as "normal cement". It doesn't take much research to realize that Portland cement is hydraulic cement. Forms of non-hydraulic cement were in use long before Portland (hydraulic) cement, but it has fallen out of favour except for some very specific application, most of which have indoor uses, that's why I asked you if you have ever used non-hydraulic cement before and what application. Non-hydraulic cements have become virtually obsolete due to the difficulties involved regarding the long durations required for drying and setting.You'd be hard pressed to find a place that sells non-hydraulic cement. If you go to a hardware store and ask for a bag of cement they are going to sell you a bag of Portland cement. If you specify that you want only non-hydraulic cement they are going to look at you funny and start scratching there heads because they probably really don't know the difference either, so you are not alone.
I realize that it can sometimes be an embarrassing thing to expose ones lack of understand about a particular subject over an internet forum, but rather then carry on fighting an argument that was lost from the beginning, why not think of it as a positive learning experience. Take the time with your injury to do some reading, I'm sure eventually it will all sink in.
In the meantime we all love what you are doing with your turtle rescue and I personally wish you all the best with that. I too am a turtle aficionado so at least we have that in common.

I guess people don't realize I am a little "confrontational" and love a good (or bad) argument but like I said I have already moved on to other pursuits including a debate about Islam or as I call it bat shit crazy. So lets hope I get out of the debate with my head still on

 

[Dave 54]

Many owners of concrete koi ponds tend to cover their block sructure and sement base with fire glass to stop the cement leaching into the water.
I do recall one Zambian lady who's koi got horrific burns from mouthing the cement walls , she was a strange lady thought she knew it all , in the ed she got banned from KKU nd Koi4u for cruelty when she effectively amputated the upper lip of a koi suffering from these burns .

Dave