Are you aware that by running your water fall throughout the winter months you can in acctual fact super chill the pond and it is adviised by the experts that water falls should be shut down during the colder months to aviod this .
Dave
Cold Pond
- Thread starter AnthonyRibis
- Start date
Dave
I wish Dave would include the word "some" in that advice - "it is advised by SOME experts". Other "experts" will tell you that there is absolutely no chance you will "super chill" or "super cool" your pond by running your falls all winter. There is some risk in running your falls of course - ice diverting the water is the obvious one. But we run our falls all winter in temperatures that get well below zero for many days - if not weeks - and our fish not only survive, they thrive in our winter pond. So this is one area where you will find some dissenting opinions in the pond world.
Meyer Jordan
Tadpole
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2014
- Messages
- 7,177
- Reaction score
- 5,678
- Location
- Pensacola, Florida
- Hardiness Zone
- 9a
- Country
It heavily depends on the location of the pump intake(s).
Agreed! Pond construction variations is key to so many issues that create differing opinions in the pond world. People think "this worked in MY pond" or "that didn't work in MY pond" and so it must be a universal truth. First start with "how is my pond built" and work out the issues from there. If I had an external pump, I would be way more concerned about my pump and lines freezing than I would be about super cooling my pond. If I had a pump in the bottom of my pond I would be concerned that I was drawing warmer water from the bottom and replacing it with cooler water from the top. That might create a problem.
I have a thought (since I'm far from an expert). When I ran my falls, there was a sheet of ice with the water running behind it. Wouldn't the same principal that ice and snow on top of your pond act like an insulator apply here? The water wouldn't be air temp obviously or it would be frozen. It's running behind the ice. I would think people that use air stones would be more at risk of cooling the water since you are drawing air temp and adding it to the warmer water. Thoughts?
Meyer Jordan
Tadpole
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2014
- Messages
- 7,177
- Reaction score
- 5,678
- Location
- Pensacola, Florida
- Hardiness Zone
- 9a
- Country
Good point! Ice (and snow) are good insulators, but one needs to strive for a balance in keeping the water column as warm as possible, naturally, and allowing for de-gassing. Air stones or bottom aerators are not optimum for they draw water from the bottom which will cool the entire water column as Lisak1 commented. Snow cover is not ideal as it severely limits the amount of light that penetrates into the pond. Algae need light and will continue to survive and produce Oxygen which is always a needed commodity. Without sufficient Oxygen, not only are the fish affected but bacteria without sufficient Oxygen will utilize other elements for oxidation, producing Sulfur dioxide and Methane gas.
If one is going to help out and considering many a first attempt at a pond is often done wrong it would be wrong of me not to warn of this Lisa.
As Meyer has said its dependant on where the location of the pump intakes are then I concider it right to warn people of this effect on ponds and when you say some experts I've only come across a few experts who dont mention it in their books .
When my pond was put together I was lucky enough to get it right first time with the help of the then head of the BKKS health standards committee and our sections Health officer , we even took in insulation not only of the pond but the filter housing too the net result with the covers on the pond , one that doesnt ever freeze over and is at 7c at its lowest.
Ours is a beautiful hobby and I want others to enjoy it as much as Val and I have these last 28 years, I think you must agree with that yes ?
Dave
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2013
- Messages
- 3,308
- Reaction score
- 7,293
- Location
- Rhode Island, USA
- Showcase(s):
- 1
- Hardiness Zone
- 6a
- Country
That is exactly why I shovel off the pond. When I check under the ice I have beautiful algae growth. The sun really hits the ice nicely and the fish are not in complete darkness for months. Granted this year keeping the pond clear has been a lot of work but I feel it is worth the effort. I keep my air stones about 12" from the surface and that seems to work well for me. This year has been the coldest and the snowiness I have ever experienced. Hoping my efforts payoff come spring.
Agree 100%. I have no quarrel with sharing information. However, even experts are known to share things that are just opinions, not facts. You said "I've only come across a few experts who don't mention it in their books" - so that means there may be some who disagree with that opinion.
Even the word "expert" has very little true meaning anymore - who says what makes one an expert? And what do you do when "experts" disagree? Or when the "experts" completely reverse their own expert advice - it happens all the time in the health field. What's good and bad for us seems to change on a daily basis - you can get whiplash trying to keep up. Just last week we heard all the advice about dietary fat was probably not the best advice after all - great! And I'm old enough to remember when the medical "experts" were endorsing cigarette smoking as being good for relaxing your nerves! And women (my own mother included) were told to smoke while pregnant to help keep their weight down. Those were all the "experts" of their time giving that advice. So I'm not terribly impressed by the concept of an expert.
I am an "expert" in only one pond - my own. We had to filter through lots and lots of conflicting opinions on the rights and wrongs of pond building. I am glad for people who share their knowledge and experience in the hobby, as it all adds to a better base of information for everyone. But ultimately there is no one RIGHT answer on any single aspect of pond building.
Honestly there's only thing EVERY "expert" agrees that EVERY pond needs and that's WATER!
The reason we built up our reference library was an attempt to fill in those gaps left by the experts you seem so scathing of we take in all the imformation given out and it is then down to us to take all the information given then make own minds up on the matter, that is what reference libraries are all about Lisa.
Not all our books are koi books no far from it if thats what you think we have many touch on other disaplines within the field of Ichtheology such as fish behavour,The Science of fish health Management, Pathology, Fish Physiology, Fish diseases, Diseases of Carp and other cyprinids etc .
When I say experts they are in their field many are extremely well qualified to formulate their opinions so I say expet when I mean expert not some hobbyist that has thrown together a book that is at best a good read and yes I have more than one or two of those.
Nearly all of the koi books we own are written by experts many have Doctorates some are written by Japanese breeders one by a shinto priest who was also a koi breeder.
If you wish to learn more there's a list of books put there by us for all to use ISBN numbers when and were I can, Authors names, Titles .
Meyer states that books grow old very true but I'm also willing to keep on learning and some of the papers he's linked into are extremely interesting , are you going to knock him because they too are written by experts some of them Professors.of Ictheology
Why so many books simply this we are willing to learn
Dave
Last edited:
You folks are much more knowledgeable at this then I am but my intake for my falls is my skimmer. I mentioned before the splash down area of my falls doesn't disrupt the main/deeper part of my pond. So I don't believe I am chilling the entire pond. I run my falls to keep a hole in the ice as my air stone and de-icer have failed to do so the last 2 winters. We are warming up and finally have all the ice off my pond, problem is I didn't see either of my 2 fish. During the cold months they usually just hunker down to the bottom. I didn't want to poke around in there and disrupt the water too much. I have 2 lily pots at the bottom and a some leaves, they usually hide in or around there. I am definitely going to invest in one of those stock tank heaters for next winter.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2013
- Messages
- 6,288
- Reaction score
- 5,068
- Location
- Cincinnati, Ohio
- Hardiness Zone
- 6 A
- Country
I was able to get a good look at my pond today, it i cleared of snow and ice. It appears all my fish made it, at least my five big koi did. I've got a good bit of string algae blooming...I removed some, but figure I'll let the pond slowly wake up and the fish can much on it.
Not sure when I'll put my bigger aerator in the pond
Not sure when I'll put my bigger aerator in the pond
Got a better look today after work and seen at least one of my fish down between the lily pots. Big relief! Is the fall battle over leaves never ending?! I did a good cleaning before I put the net on, left the net on so I could get the yard cleaned up as much as possible, took the net off before the snow fell and I still has a bunch of leaves in the water.
I thought I had most of the leaves picked up too back in November, too, but there are still a bunch of them stuck in the shrubs next to the pond and they keep falling into the water. I didn't even realize they were there until the snow melted over the past few days.
Once it gets a little warmer outside I can do a better clean-up. I ran out of time in the fall... we were busy trying to move into the house, then daylight savings hit and I lost that daylight after work for yardwork, then the weather took a nose-dive, then I had a month of health problems... At that point it was December and everything was frozen to the ground.
Once it gets a little warmer outside I can do a better clean-up. I ran out of time in the fall... we were busy trying to move into the house, then daylight savings hit and I lost that daylight after work for yardwork, then the weather took a nose-dive, then I had a month of health problems... At that point it was December and everything was frozen to the ground.
callingcolleen1
mad hatter
- Joined
- May 1, 2012
- Messages
- 9,432
- Reaction score
- 8,128
- Hardiness Zone
- 4a
- Country
I use the 1500 watt floating heater from Cattle Stockman Supply, 25 dollars. I did use the 1250 watt green floating heater last year and that worked pretty good too.
It is all how you use It. Flowing water right in front of heater allows the heat to better circulate through out the whole pond, and my upper connecting ponds stay open longer and don't freeze as quick as bottom pond. Upper ponds de ice very quick as running water from pond to pond all winter erodes the ice away very quick. Don't worry about ice cold water, fish are Always fine, been doing it my way for 25 years now while others worry and wonder cause they can't see fish In spring. My pumps run all year round and my two biggest koi are 25 years old now.