Bottom drain help

[Nakish66]

My husband and I are in the planning stages of our expansion project. This time we want to do everything that we didn't know about before ie. skimmer, bottom drain etc. Right now we have a 4 inch PVC pipe that is about 3 ft long with 1/2 inch hole drilled completely around the pipe. It is capped off on the end. It sits at the bottom of our pond maybe about 2 inches off the bottom. It's plumbed into our external pump that sucks the water from the bottom goes through the pump, through the filter, through the uv and then back out the water fall. We only had the uv light on when we first started the pond, but after about a month we don't have to cut it on anymore. Anyway, what I wanted to know is does this work as a bottom drain or is it better to get the 4inch round one and cut the liner and stuff. I tried to attach a picture of what is in the bottom of the pond now. I'll see if I can find a picture of how it sits in the pond. Thank you in advance for any help!

 

[addy1]

Well the big question is, does it keep the bottom of your pond clean? if so, then I would say it is fine.
The built bd's tend to have a suction that would help draw the muck out of the bottom. I don't have a built in bd, others do, some say once you have one you would not go back to not having one.
I don't care to cut the liner, have never put in a cut in bd, but those that have, if done right, have no issues.

What size are you expanding to? I am having my arizona pond torn down, will have a ppl24 liner available, the pond is 14k gallons. Do have a few california people interested in it, but shipping would cost a bit. If I remember right, my arizona pond is around 20x15x5 maybe............I am going to have them measure it for me once removed.

Have a retro fit skimmer, i.e. liner not cut lol there also.

I am going to have the pumps shipped to me.

 

[koidaddy]

If you dont want to cut your liner, which I wouldn't, that would work better then nothing. I have used that type and the round drain type plumbed like yours.

 

[Nakish66]

Well the big question is, does it keep the bottom of your pond clean? if so, then I would say it is fine.
The built bd's tend to have a suction that would help draw the muck out of the bottom. I don't have a built in bd, others do, some say once you have one you would not go back to not having one.
I don't care to cut the liner, have never put in a cut in bd, but those that have, if done right, have no issues.

What size are you expanding to? I am having my arizona pond torn down, will have a ppl24 liner available, the pond is 14k gallons. Do have a few california people interested in it, but shipping would cost a bit. If I remember right, my arizona pond is around 20x15x5 maybe............I am going to have them measure it for me once removed.

Have a retro fit skimmer, i.e. liner not cut lol there also.

I am going to have the pumps shipped to me.

I think it does an okay job. I still have to skim the bottom sometimes, but I haven't seen any built up crud down there. I do have alot of leaves that settle in the bottom, but I'm hoping the skimmer helps me with that. You know it's monsoon season now so I have a lot more sand and stuff blowing around than usual. Another big mistake we made was making a flat bottom. This time we plan on sloping the bottom to one spot so that the crud settles in one spot. We are planning on going 20ft X 10-11ft (at the widest part) X 5 ft deep. Where the pond is built behind my fire pit seating it has to stay at 5ft wide and will get wider once it passes that. I think it will be about 5000 gallons. I'm not familiar with PPL24. How much life do you think it has left in it? Is it as good as a 45 mil EPDM? Is your new pond built with the same stuff? If you could send me an offlne message and let me know how the skimmer works and what you are asking I would appreciate it. Thank you!

 

[Nakish66]

If you dont want to cut your liner, which I wouldn't, that would work better then nothing. I have used that type and the round drain type plumbed like yours.

Thank you! Is the trick just to use a strong enough pump to get a good suction when not using the BD where you cut the liner? I guess I just never want to have to empty the entire pond for a cleaning. My husband and I are both in the Air force and we are on the go a lot so Im going for the least maintenance possible, because both of us are not always here to help one another out.

 

[addy1]

I think it does an okay job. I still have to skim the bottom sometimes, but I haven't seen any built up crud down there. I do have alot of leaves that settle in the bottom, but I'm hoping the skimmer helps me with that. You know it's monsoon season now so I have a lot more sand and stuff blowing around than usual. Another big mistake we made was making a flat bottom. This time we plan on sloping the bottom to one spot so that the crud settles in one spot. We are planning on going 20ft X 10-11ft (at the widest part) X 5 ft deep. Where the pond is built behind my fire pit seating it has to stay at 5ft wide and will get wider once it passes that. I think it will be about 5000 gallons. I'm not familiar with PPL24. How much life do you think it has left in it? Is it as good as a 45 mil EPDM? Is your new pond built with the same stuff? If you could send me an offlne message and let me know how the skimmer works and what you are asking I would appreciate it. Thank you!

My pond here has ppl36, it is some tough stuff, we have a ton of rock, they recommended getting the ppl36 for this pond. The liner in arizona should have many years left in it, the pond is in a shaded area, so not much sun hitting it. I like ppl, others like epdm. I just put in a small pond on our deck with epdm, the one thing I noticed right away is that epdm gets darn slick. The ppl in my big pond I can walk into with no slippage.

 

[Waterbug]

The only purpose of a bottom drain is to remove muck. There is simply no other purpose.

Some people think it has something to do with moving "bad" water from the bottom. The term stratification is taken from lake management and has nothing to do with backyard ponds. In a backyard pond even a small pump will provide a tremendous amount of movement compared to large lakes. A ponder is prone to worrying about buzz words like stratification they can direct pump output to the pond bottom and get better "turnover" than drawing water from the bottom.

In my previous pond I installed a bottom drain just in case I ever wanted one. The pipe went along the bottom, up the side and through the liner a little below the water line. If there ever was a leak the pond would not drain completely and it would be much easier to fix. I drew water from the skimmer and never needed the bottom drain. Vacuuming was much easier. When I sold that house the new owners hired "professional" pond keepers to "fix" the pond. They attach the standard do nothing bio filter to the bottom drain and pocketed a cool grand. Took about a week for the raccoons to become interested in the filter and knock it over. The pump continued to draw water from the bottom and pump it into the yard. The next day the pond was empty and the fish dead. Did the pond keepers learn anything? Sure, that they could charge another $100 to "fix" the "fix" they implemented and put it all back. Luckily raccoons are much smarter than people and didn't knock it over again (yet) because they didn't find any food in it the first time.

My point is that if a ponder wants to risk losing their fish they should at least get some benefit from a bottom drain.

To work a bottom drain has to have a very serious filter for removing the muck from the water. The filter has to be cleaned once or twice a week. It is not a set it and forget it type deal. Muck produces the same result whether at the bottom of a pond or sitting in a filter.

So to answer the question, a "bottom drain" with some 1/2" holes is not a bottom drain. It's just a pump intake at the bottom of the pond. I'm surprised it hasn't clogged yet and burned out the pump. That's normally what happens. 99% of a bottom drain is not whatever sits at the bottom of a pond, it's the filter and the cleaning of that filter.

 

[Waterbug]

Nakish66,

It should be pointed out that a sloped bottom by itself does little to move muck toward a drain. Muck in water is almost weightless, almost suspended. Muck acts much more like objects in outer space.

Water movement moves muck. If you point the output from even a tiny pump toward the bottom and along the side you will soon have the entire pond water column rotating and that will move muck.

That being said, a depression around the bottom drain does help give a place for the moving muck to collect. If the depression is in the form of a sloped bottom then cool. I like sloped bottoms if possible, but flat will work too.

I also want to say that a bottom drain has almost zero suction. Even with a 10HP pump. Without water movement you would see a clear spot around the bottom drain maybe 1 inch around the drain. This also is true for all the drain cover deals you can buy and make. They do nothing to increase suction.

 

[KennethO]

To get the most out of a bottom drain you should try to use a gravity vortex or settlement chamber. This helps remove the solids before they hit the pumps impellers and turning into a slurry. It is much harder for the finer particles to settle out or be captured without the help from some quilt batting or some other fines filter.

 

[Nakish66]

The only purpose of a bottom drain is to remove muck. There is simply no other purpose.

Some people think it has something to do with moving "bad" water from the bottom. The term stratification is taken from lake management and has nothing to do with backyard ponds. In a backyard pond even a small pump will provide a tremendous amount of movement compared to large lakes. A ponder is prone to worrying about buzz words like stratification they can direct pump output to the pond bottom and get better "turnover" than drawing water from the bottom.

In my previous pond I installed a bottom drain just in case I ever wanted one. The pipe went along the bottom, up the side and through the liner a little below the water line. If there ever was a leak the pond would not drain completely and it would be much easier to fix. I drew water from the skimmer and never needed the bottom drain. Vacuuming was much easier. When I sold that house the new owners hired "professional" pond keepers to "fix" the pond. They attach the standard do nothing bio filter to the bottom drain and pocketed a cool grand. Took about a week for the raccoons to become interested in the filter and knock it over. The pump continued to draw water from the bottom and pump it into the yard. The next day the pond was empty and the fish dead. Did the pond keepers learn anything? Sure, that they could charge another $100 to "fix" the "fix" they implemented and put it all back. Luckily raccoons are much smarter than people and didn't knock it over again (yet) because they didn't find any food in it the first time.

My point is that if a ponder wants to risk losing their fish they should at least get some benefit from a bottom drain.

To work a bottom drain has to have a very serious filter for removing the muck from the water. The filter has to be cleaned once or twice a week. It is not a set it and forget it type deal. Muck produces the same result whether at the bottom of a pond or sitting in a filter.

So to answer the question, a "bottom drain" with some 1/2" holes is not a bottom drain. It's just a pump intake at the bottom of the pond. I'm surprised it hasn't clogged yet and burned out the pump. That's normally what happens. 99% of a bottom drain is not whatever sits at the bottom of a pond, it's the filter and the cleaning of that filter.

Thanks for the reply. Wow waterbug you have me scared now! So my pump intake is no good. What should I change because I definitely don't want this thing to clog and burn out my pump, that pump was not cheap.....LOL!! Being a newbie to all of this I would have never guessed that the huge tube would ever clog. I have my intake going to a ultima II filter, and I backflush it every week to every two weeks. So if I just use a skimmer for intake and use a vacuum for the bottom, I should be okay? So what will you be doing october/November time frame? Since you are so close I could really use your expertise :razz:!!

 

[Nakish66]

Nakish66,

It should be pointed out that a sloped bottom by itself does little to move muck toward a drain. Muck in water is almost weightless, almost suspended. Muck acts much more like objects in outer space.

Water movement moves muck. If you point the output from even a tiny pump toward the bottom and along the side you will soon have the entire pond water column rotating and that will move muck.

That being said, a depression around the bottom drain does help give a place for the moving muck to collect. If the depression is in the form of a sloped bottom then cool. I like sloped bottoms if possible, but flat will work too.

I also want to say that a bottom drain has almost zero suction. Even with a 10HP pump. Without water movement you would see a clear spot around the bottom drain maybe 1 inch around the drain. This also is true for all the drain cover deals you can buy and make. They do nothing to increase suction.

Yes, I plan on having some form of water jets to help move water on the bottom. The only thing I have down there now is some air disc that are running on a 110 lpm air pump. Thanks again for the help!!

 

[Nakish66]

To get the most out of a bottom drain you should try to use a gravity vortex or settlement chamber. This helps remove the solids before they hit the pumps impellers and turning into a slurry. It is much harder for the finer particles to settle out or be captured without the help from some quilt batting or some other fines filter.

Thank you! Quilt batting is definitely my friend.

 

[Nakish66]

My pond here has ppl36, it is some tough stuff, we have a ton of rock, they recommended getting the ppl36 for this pond. The liner in arizona should have many years left in it, the pond is in a shaded area, so not much sun hitting it. I like ppl, others like epdm. I just put in a small pond on our deck with epdm, the one thing I noticed right away is that epdm gets darn slick. The ppl in my big pond I can walk into with no slippage.

LOL........I know all about the slickness! I went to take a step onto a plant shelf in the pond one day as I was trying to get better leverage for skimming the bottom as soon as my first foot hit the shelf it was all over. I had a nice swim with the fishes! The first and last time I ever stepped in the pond....... Now I stay on the edge, if I can't reach something I call my husband!

 

[addy1]

Check out tpr's for circulation in your pond.

http://www.fancykoio.../supply/tpr.htm

My current bottom drain looks a lot like yours Nakish, been running for a while with no issues. I do have a leaf basket between the drain and the pump to catch any big stuff. It does not keep the bottom sparkly clean, but there is not a real collection of muck to worry about. My pond does slope to the lowest point, the junk does migrate down there. It goes from 2 feet to 5 feet. When I go into groom the lilies there is some muck, minimal. My arizona pond has a retro fit bottom drain, it did not suck well like he is saying, but I would sweep the muck towards the drain, and clean the leaf basket.

Your pipe is off the bottom by two inches, I doubt you are sucking in stuff that will clog it, unless the muck is two inches deep. Do you have a leaf basket before your pump?

 

[koidaddy]

Thanks for the reply. Wow waterbug you have me scared now! So my pump intake is no good. What should I change because I definitely don't want this thing to clog and burn out my pump, that pump was not cheap.....LOL!! Being a newbie to all of this I would have never guessed that the huge tube would ever clog. I have my intake going to a ultima II filter, and I backflush it every week to every two weeks. So if I just use a skimmer for intake and use a vacuum for the bottom, I should be okay? So what will you be doing october/November time frame? Since you are so close I could really use your expertise :razz:!!

How much debris do you have on the bottom? I have used that style of what I call baffle(1 1/2" pvc with holes drilled in) with a mag drive 18 pump with no problems. Yes if you have alot of large debris it could clog the holes but if its that bad you have other issues. Your skimmer should catch most of the large debris before it sinks. I agree with Waterbug that having water movement will greatly reduce the ammount of settlement on the bottom. And I often think about a malfunction with my bottom pickup and my pond draining.