Beneficial Bacteria Question

[CometKeith]

I was speculating as to the cause why a warm water pond in the winter might be not conducive to having a healthy situation for fish. Personally I felt that to have pond water for long stretches of time that is more than double the air temp might be "wrong" in some way and was causing the problem. I know for a fact that once the sick fish were diagnosed the water temperature was reduced. I think each of you have well reasoned arguments about pond water temps either higher or lower not being detrimental, but both situations are different than the case study I mentioned. I receive communications from the person that maintained that pond. I'm going to reach out to him to see if he is willing to discuss what might have caused the problem and if I hear back I'll post it here. Thanks CK

 

[barryian]

Why would toxins increase in the water just because it was kept at 60F?
Winter pond temps in my area typically stay around 60F with absolutely no increase in toxins or pathogens.
Also the other "necessary components" would indeed be present.Why would they not be?
I am sorry Keith but I do not follow your thinking here. 60F water is 60F water regardless of what the calendar says or what the ambient air temperature may be.

My thoughts exactly! The fish only know the water temp!

I was speculating as to the cause why a warm water pond in the winter might be not conducive to having a healthy situation for fish. Personally I felt that to have pond water for long stretches of time that is more than double the air temp might be "wrong" in some way and was causing the problem. I know for a fact that once the sick fish were diagnosed the water temperature was reduced. I think each of you have well reasoned arguments about pond water temps either higher or lower not being detrimental, but both situations are different than the case study I mentioned. I receive communications from the person that maintained that pond. I'm going to reach out to him to see if he is willing to discuss what might have caused the problem and if I hear back I'll post it here. Thanks CK

Hi CK, that's not Louie CK, right? lol ... I'd be curious to his response and what caused the fish loss if he knew. By keeping my temps at 45F in winter, to me from years of past experience, just appear that they come through winter in flying colors, a slightly better immune system and lastly, I don't have to feed them as their metabolically quite slow. I also have no chemistry changes except a very slight drop in kh but it's kept up around 200 going into winter so not to worry.

On the other hand, if he keeps it at 60F in the cold of winter, I would think and don't know if this is correct, he would have some maintenance and feeding to do. @Meyer Jordan Also at 60F, their immune system is still quite compromised, right? Even in FL where you reside, doesn't a compromised immune system make it more likely for fish to be attacked? Again, though, you can easily in your climate stay on top of things in the winter, in Chicago, with cold, ice and snow, running out to the pond would be quite hassle. At 60F, in the winter in Chicago, they still would need to be fed. I don't see the point. At 45F, my skimmer runs, my bio is shut down and they're not fed creating no setup for bad scenarios. That 15F difference changes a lot in a different locale.

 

[MitchM]

I'm curious to hear how someone would keep a 40,000 gallon pond in Chicago heated to 60F through the winter!
There must have been a pond cover involved.
Perhaps there were some mold issues going on.

 

[Dave 54]

My thoughts exactly! The fish only know the water temp!


Hi CK, that's not Louie CK, right? lol ... I'd be curious to his response and what caused the fish loss if he knew. By keeping my temps at 45F in winter, to me from years of past experience, just appear that they come through winter in flying colors, a slightly better immune system and lastly, I don't have to feed them as their metabolically quite slow. I also have no chemistry changes except a very slight drop in kh but it's kept up around 200 going into winter so not to worry.

On the other hand, if he keeps it at 60F in the cold of winter, I would think and don't know if this is correct, he would have some maintenance and feeding to do. @Meyer Jordan Also at 60F, their immune system is still quite compromised, right? Even in FL where you reside, doesn't a compromised immune system make it more likely for fish to be attacked? Again, though, you can easily in your climate stay on top of things in the winter, in Chicago, with cold, ice and snow, running out to the pond would be quite hassle. At 60F, in the winter in Chicago, they still would need to be fed. I don't see the point. At 45F, my skimmer runs, my bio is shut down and they're not fed creating no setup for bad scenarios. That 15F difference changes a lot in a different locale.

There are two trains of thought about heating your pond and not heating your pond, insulating the pond can negate the need to heat a pond but this should be done when you build the pond , the other is that if you are going to heat your pond you do it all year around.
I cover my pond with policarbonate roofing sheets and have installed insulation throughout, the pond has 22mm polistyreene sheeting and re-cycled loft insulation which is also around our pipes, the filter housing walls are covered with 22mm polistyreene sheeting .
Lastly we use policarbonate roofing sheets to stop any windchill , looking at todays reading from our remote pond thermometer we have a temperature of 10.7c this is necessary to know just what your pond temperature is doing at any time during the winter too low and the kois immune system slows right down as such there is a very fine line between the two.
Bellow 4c the koi just sit on the bottom which can lead to your fish developing ulcers, unlike us fish cannot shiver to keep warm so if our pond starts to creep towards that temperature we switch on a small oil filled heater situated in our filter housing they are far cheaper to run that the [1, 2, 3kw pond heaters], to gently push the temperature back up again .
However we have an air temperature of only 7c so you see it does insulation does work , last night we had an air temperature of only 3c but the pond only dropped to 10.2c .
So if your doing a build factor in insulation which will save you a fortune in electricity costs
It is advisable to periodically feed the koi a small amount of wheatgerm and garlic every week or so

Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I'm curious to hear how someone would keep a 40,000 gallon pond in Chicago heated to 60F through the winter!
There must have been a pond cover involved.
Perhaps there were some mold issues going on.

Much the same as heating a swimming pool only Stainless Steel or Titanium must be used instead of Copper.
http://pentairaes.com/water-to-water-heat-exchanger-packages.html

 

[MitchM]

Much the same as heating a swimming pool only Stainless Steel or Titanium must be used instead of Copper.
http://pentairaes.com/water-to-water-heat-exchanger-packages.html

Sorry, I guess I should have asked "why" someone would heat a pond with such cold ambient temperatures.
I am aware that is equipment available to accomplish the task.
Cold air has very low relative humidity, so evaporation would be significant. That would mean that a fair amount of top up water would be needed.
Perhaps that's where this large pond we're talking about fell short of providing safe conditions for the fish.

.

 

[barryian]

I'm curious to hear how someone would keep a 40,000 gallon pond in Chicago heated to 60F through the winter!
There must have been a pond cover involved.
Perhaps there were some mold issues going on.

Or a heater running a lot of kilowatts running up a major electric bill ....

 

[CometKeith]

These are a few pictures of it. I took these in June of 2014 when it was on a pond tour. It's much larger than what you can see in one shot because it bends around. If I remember correctly there was some sort of covering put over it but it was installed so you can still see the fish and it was heated to 65 degrees.

 

[barryian]

These are a few pictures of it. I took these in June of 2014 when it was on a pond tour. It's much larger than what you can see in one shot because it bends around. If I remember correctly there was some sort of covering put over it but it was installed so you can still see the fish and it was heated to 65 degrees.View attachment 89829 View attachment 89827 View attachment 89828

Beautiful !!! This was also in Chicago area?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

There are people out there that can easily afford the electric cost associated with heating a pond. These same people likely also have heated swimming pools. Must be nice!

 

[barryian]

There are people out there that can easily afford the electric cost associated with heating a pond. These same people likely also have heated swimming pools. Must be nice!

I have a heated pool, Meyer. It is nice! It's a Hayward heat pump. After the bill, came, I bought a reel and solar bubble cover!
Now we use the heater in an emergency! I've retired and want to stay retired ... lol ...

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Now we use the heater in an emergency! .

Just curious, what circumstance would you consider an "emergency" situation where you needed to heat your pool?

 

[barryian]

Just curious, what circumstance would you consider an "emergency" situation where you needed to heat your pool?

Hahaha - 4 grandsons coming by for the weekend when the water temp is in the 70's! ...

 

[CometKeith]

Yes it's in a suburb of Chicago.They also have a professional pond keeper that cares for it and designed many of the elements. There is a gated driveway and a stretch of road before you get to the pond and you can see the house from the pond but it is further back. I guess it was a retention pond before it was converted into a fish pond. I don't want to mention the owner's name because of privacy but he was a very well regarded elected official in Illinois and I was told he is now the attorney for a very successful sports franchise. I met some people that sold replacement fish to the owners so I heard about the heating fiasco from more than one source. Re: Money to burn... there are several million dollar ponds in the Chicago area. I guess that's the richest 1% that we keep hearing about!

 

[Lisak1]

" I don't want to mention the owner's name because of privacy but he was a very well regarded elected official in Illinois and I was told he is now the attorney for a very successful sports franchise. "

Well regarded, huh? I guess we can rule out all of our ex-governors/current felons! The pond looks shallow in the pictures - do you recall how deep it was?