Just to clarify, I was not talking about J.W. or anyone else. Just saying in general it's a bad idea. I am on a diesel truck forum where it seems the guys who know the least post the most. I barely go on that forum anymore!
aussie newbie with a bathtub
- Thread starter abrogard
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Welcome aboard Abrogard!
Many years ago I had a cast iron bathtub, the type with the four eagle claw talons clutching the round balls which were the base points of the tub and it had the white porcelain enamel coated interior. it served as a very fine fish pond! Kinda miss that tub, it was best for a human bathtub because it was so large that a six foot plus person could really relax in it! the back of the tub was contoured so that you could lay back in it and soak in the hot water, like a spa. Seems most new tubs are small even for me, and I am only 5' 6.5" tall and I feel cramped in them! I wish I had kept that old antique tub for my own use, knowing what I know now.
Gordy
Many years ago I had a cast iron bathtub, the type with the four eagle claw talons clutching the round balls which were the base points of the tub and it had the white porcelain enamel coated interior. it served as a very fine fish pond! Kinda miss that tub, it was best for a human bathtub because it was so large that a six foot plus person could really relax in it! the back of the tub was contoured so that you could lay back in it and soak in the hot water, like a spa. Seems most new tubs are small even for me, and I am only 5' 6.5" tall and I feel cramped in them! I wish I had kept that old antique tub for my own use, knowing what I know now.
Gordy
Thanks for that post, JW. I finally clicked your link to your own pond and was enormously impressed. I got to have one. You're an expert alright. Twice you've built those ponds, at least. And all the plantings... it's beautiful, lovely. I've never made anything remotely like it in my life but I know what to aim for now.
Can't wait to show it to my wife and get her onboard with the idea.
Of course we'd have many differences, this being south australia (currently running temp of 45C), dry and hot - means different vegetation I suppose but surely something very similar must be possible.
I struggle with a vege garden and have become conscious of the fact that all our table vegies are foreign imports which is the underlying reason they're so hard to grow. Similar thing with the pond I guess. An Aussie natural pond may not have much of the lush beauty of yours, it may have to have more drier plants, sharper, harder looking things, but it'd still be good.
Everything I see of yours impresses me. Even the stonework. Looks to me like your husband shares your talent for creativity perhaps.
So that's all lovely but I'm still no closer, really, to figuring out what I need for my tub.
Remember, I'm opining that my filter is doing nothing and looking for advice on that would be the main thing.
Because it doesn't filter hardly any particulates and doesn't/can't filter out algae and creates very little oxygenation - so it's doing 800 litres/hour for what? Nothing. Just because I got the idea somewhere that's what you 'have to have'.
I'm confused about so much.
For instance algae - which we want, because it will help de-nitrify the pool - needs light and food. But haven't I seen many de-nitrifying filters that are essentially closed tubes with a porous material in them which is supposed to increase the surface area many times allowing much algae to flourish? But there's no light there...
Yet for excess algae they all say 'cut down the light'.
Your bathtub supports your fish when you put it to use and yet you don't have any filtration systems and your water is clear.
And someone, somewhere, said four goldfish was too much for 50 gallons. ...
I'm thinking today I need monitoring hardware or techniques for pool health and then I'll know where I'm at.
All I have right now is a pH meter and that reports a '7'.
I think I need more data and then I could monitor the progress of the pool. Put a big filter, what happens? Take it out, what?
Scrub the algae out with one of these UV 'killer' things - monitor that, do ammonia, nitrate levels increase?
How about moving the algae production out of the pool so's I can go for a 'crystal clear' pool? What sort of algae producer to make? Seems to me sunlight should be the go. Flat surfaces exposed to the sun.. trickling water...
I talk too much. Probably should have sat with my thoughts for a couple of hours before writing...... sorry....
p.s. Just saw your post catfishnut. And how did you run your pond? What fish, what filters, what pumps?
Yep, this tub is an oldie. Cast iron. Heavy, heavy, heavy, did myself an injury moving it and nearly bashed in the side of the shed last time I was at it. Because one leg is snapped so it tilts and by god it takes some work to hold it level from one end..... But good! You've got to respect them. They are scattered all over this country in farmer's paddocks and horse paddocks and such, for watering stock... many of them more than a hundred years old....
Can't wait to show it to my wife and get her onboard with the idea.
Of course we'd have many differences, this being south australia (currently running temp of 45C), dry and hot - means different vegetation I suppose but surely something very similar must be possible.
I struggle with a vege garden and have become conscious of the fact that all our table vegies are foreign imports which is the underlying reason they're so hard to grow. Similar thing with the pond I guess. An Aussie natural pond may not have much of the lush beauty of yours, it may have to have more drier plants, sharper, harder looking things, but it'd still be good.
Everything I see of yours impresses me. Even the stonework. Looks to me like your husband shares your talent for creativity perhaps.
So that's all lovely but I'm still no closer, really, to figuring out what I need for my tub.
Remember, I'm opining that my filter is doing nothing and looking for advice on that would be the main thing.
Because it doesn't filter hardly any particulates and doesn't/can't filter out algae and creates very little oxygenation - so it's doing 800 litres/hour for what? Nothing. Just because I got the idea somewhere that's what you 'have to have'.
I'm confused about so much.
For instance algae - which we want, because it will help de-nitrify the pool - needs light and food. But haven't I seen many de-nitrifying filters that are essentially closed tubes with a porous material in them which is supposed to increase the surface area many times allowing much algae to flourish? But there's no light there...
Yet for excess algae they all say 'cut down the light'.
Your bathtub supports your fish when you put it to use and yet you don't have any filtration systems and your water is clear.
And someone, somewhere, said four goldfish was too much for 50 gallons. ...
I'm thinking today I need monitoring hardware or techniques for pool health and then I'll know where I'm at.
All I have right now is a pH meter and that reports a '7'.
I think I need more data and then I could monitor the progress of the pool. Put a big filter, what happens? Take it out, what?
Scrub the algae out with one of these UV 'killer' things - monitor that, do ammonia, nitrate levels increase?
How about moving the algae production out of the pool so's I can go for a 'crystal clear' pool? What sort of algae producer to make? Seems to me sunlight should be the go. Flat surfaces exposed to the sun.. trickling water...
I talk too much. Probably should have sat with my thoughts for a couple of hours before writing...... sorry....
p.s. Just saw your post catfishnut. And how did you run your pond? What fish, what filters, what pumps?
Yep, this tub is an oldie. Cast iron. Heavy, heavy, heavy, did myself an injury moving it and nearly bashed in the side of the shed last time I was at it. Because one leg is snapped so it tilts and by god it takes some work to hold it level from one end..... But good! You've got to respect them. They are scattered all over this country in farmer's paddocks and horse paddocks and such, for watering stock... many of them more than a hundred years old....
Abrogard in reference to using the pump inside the baskets. I consider myself very much a newbie here compared to many. I did successfully have the stock tank for 2 years before I decided to dig myself a bigger pond. The setup was not my original idea but it did work well for me. Kept my water clear and I mainly had to just top it off when needed and every few weeks I would do about a 10 percent water change by just dipping out about 2 five gallon buckets of water and refilling with the same. I usually just filled more buckets with clean water and let it sit for a couple days then did my water change.
Refering to your picture. You have just about got it right with the exception of the baskets. You use two baskets exactly the same and just put the 2 tops together so one is sitting on top of the other. Butt the 2 together so one is upside down on top of the other with the pump inside surrounded by the scrubbies. You can also use 2 kitchen strainer baskets(round-no handles). You may have to cut a small opening for the pump output hose and electric cord. The pump output hose goes from the baskets to the watering can or whatever els you may find that would look nice.
Pushed the hose down to the bottom of the watering can and then the water would spill out of the spout and splash down into the pond. That created oxygen for the fish.
Others may have a much better method but this one worked well for me for my little pond. The scrubbies would be the media that good bacteria would grow on as well as help keep some of the debri from getting into the pump.
Oh and I did always have plants in there as well which helps in filtering the water. Water hyacinths and 1 lilie.
Refering to your picture. You have just about got it right with the exception of the baskets. You use two baskets exactly the same and just put the 2 tops together so one is sitting on top of the other. Butt the 2 together so one is upside down on top of the other with the pump inside surrounded by the scrubbies. You can also use 2 kitchen strainer baskets(round-no handles). You may have to cut a small opening for the pump output hose and electric cord. The pump output hose goes from the baskets to the watering can or whatever els you may find that would look nice.
Pushed the hose down to the bottom of the watering can and then the water would spill out of the spout and splash down into the pond. That created oxygen for the fish.
Others may have a much better method but this one worked well for me for my little pond. The scrubbies would be the media that good bacteria would grow on as well as help keep some of the debri from getting into the pump.
Oh and I did always have plants in there as well which helps in filtering the water. Water hyacinths and 1 lilie.
j.w
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Thank you for your nice comments abro and I will mention that right now all I have as a filter in my big pond is a black plastic plant pot, about a 10 gal size w/ holes all around it on sides and bottom w/ my pump in the middle surrounded by sheets of matala filter media wrapped all around and stuck in any empty spaces around the pump w/ a hose attached to the output running to the falls. I cut a circle of the media so it fit tight on top to hold it all in and sliced it and cut a round hole so the cord and hose could run through the top.You could do that on a much smaller scale w/ the tub pond. Just use a smaller pump and smaller pot. I've used that filter for over 12 yrs. Now tho I am switching to the new filter I just bought. It is even simpler and will be easier to clean than all those pieces of matala filter media. The old filter is hard to lift out even w/ ropes attached to pull it up. I'm telling ya tho that hose running slowly each day changing part of the tub water really keeps mine clear,clear,clear.
Abrogard,
Back then, when I was using the bathtub, I didn't have any filters or pumps or aerators I just ran the garden hose into the tank (the tub) and hoped for the best.
It worked fine for what I was doing with it at the time. I was using the tub for fish bait. I also used it for my bath tub at the same time. You might think that this
is a bit of a red-neck enterprise, but it is not. If you are muddy and dirty and want to clean up a bit, you can jump into the river to clean up. There are fish in the
river. So what is the difference between jumping into the dirty river water with the fish and jumping into a tank full of fish with clean water? Hee hee!
Yep, I am a redneck and damned proud of it!
Gordy
Back then, when I was using the bathtub, I didn't have any filters or pumps or aerators I just ran the garden hose into the tank (the tub) and hoped for the best.
It worked fine for what I was doing with it at the time. I was using the tub for fish bait. I also used it for my bath tub at the same time. You might think that this
is a bit of a red-neck enterprise, but it is not. If you are muddy and dirty and want to clean up a bit, you can jump into the river to clean up. There are fish in the
river. So what is the difference between jumping into the dirty river water with the fish and jumping into a tank full of fish with clean water? Hee hee!
Yep, I am a redneck and damned proud of it!
Gordy
Hi Abrogard I'm also still a newbie myself and this is my first winter with my pond (with home made filteration).
you said you are confuse about algae? Algae is good, it helps clean water from Ammonia and all those bad things that the fish produced (I'm no expert on this, that's my simple understanding of it) But also it's unsightly
Anyway, there is also 'Good bacteria' that most ponder called 'bio filter' which lives in any surface of the pond, including the filter media (scrubbies, cut up straws, lava rocks, hair rollers - those are example of bio filter media that people use for the 'good bacteria' to live) and people put these filter media where water can pass through (top of the waterfall, around the pump). The filter media also increase the living surface for those bacteria to live so the more of them, the more good bacteria you have. This is the simpliest way I can explain from my little knowledge
The more the good bacteria = the ability to keep the ammonia and nitrate and nitrite down and you can have more fish (just an example, not that I'm telling you to have more fish!)
The good bacteria is doing the same job as the algae
There is also this thing call a 'bog' where water run though space with lots of plants roots and plants roots act as the filter. Ijust changed my filter to this type - with 2 planters I put in pea gravels and plants then I run water through the planter from one side to the the other side and go to my waterfall.
When you have lots of good bacteria, you will not need the algae. Also to get rid of the algae, run your water through a bucket with quilt batting (pillow stuffing etc) that will help. Also have a lot of water plants, they help - I think the idea is for the plant to compete with the algae in food (but I read many debate on this.. I dont really know if that's true) but many people had success
Anya
you said you are confuse about algae? Algae is good, it helps clean water from Ammonia and all those bad things that the fish produced (I'm no expert on this, that's my simple understanding of it) But also it's unsightly
Anyway, there is also 'Good bacteria' that most ponder called 'bio filter' which lives in any surface of the pond, including the filter media (scrubbies, cut up straws, lava rocks, hair rollers - those are example of bio filter media that people use for the 'good bacteria' to live) and people put these filter media where water can pass through (top of the waterfall, around the pump). The filter media also increase the living surface for those bacteria to live so the more of them, the more good bacteria you have. This is the simpliest way I can explain from my little knowledge
The more the good bacteria = the ability to keep the ammonia and nitrate and nitrite down and you can have more fish (just an example, not that I'm telling you to have more fish!)
The good bacteria is doing the same job as the algae
There is also this thing call a 'bog' where water run though space with lots of plants roots and plants roots act as the filter. Ijust changed my filter to this type - with 2 planters I put in pea gravels and plants then I run water through the planter from one side to the the other side and go to my waterfall.
When you have lots of good bacteria, you will not need the algae. Also to get rid of the algae, run your water through a bucket with quilt batting (pillow stuffing etc) that will help. Also have a lot of water plants, they help - I think the idea is for the plant to compete with the algae in food (but I read many debate on this.. I dont really know if that's true) but many people had success
Anya
Just one more thing to add -
The good bacteria happens naturally (takes about 4-7 weeks for them to be effective by most people experiences) They just need water flow and some fish poo and they will come by themselves. You can also buy those bacteria in a bottle. I dont know what they call, though.
Anya
The good bacteria happens naturally (takes about 4-7 weeks for them to be effective by most people experiences) They just need water flow and some fish poo and they will come by themselves. You can also buy those bacteria in a bottle. I dont know what they call, though.
Anya
Thanks everyone. I've been trying to sort it all out in my head the last couple of weeks and doing too well.
Perplexing things.
UV gadget to clean the water? But what about the fierce 45 degree C heat all day - the rays of that sun would be strong in UV wouldn't they?
And UV creates the algae, right? And algae is basically good, right?
I confuse bacteria and algae, I think. Algae in sunlight is good. Bacteria in the dark is good. Both doing the same thing: converting ammonia to nitrates, right?
The filter... what's it doing? Nothing. Maybe growing bacteria on the filter wool is all. That's good. Certainly growing lots of black gunk.. is that the bacteria? Blocks the filter in the end..
People here got nothing but an intake 'bucket' or 'cage', 'box' housing a pump packed in some filter material much the same as mine.
And been working well for years apparently.
Well that's what I've got - except I've no room in the tub for an intake bucket to I've got an outflow bucket. Same thing.
And it's working at 800Litres per hour. Why? And another little pump working at 150 litres/hour I think. Why? Maybe both aerating the water a little bit.
See? I still don't know.
So I'm thinking I'll just cut out the 'big' pump and retain the 'big' bucket (normal household 10 litre plastic bucket - 2 gal US probably ) and run the little pump into it.
And I'll let it run onto a flat plate at the end of the tub, which provides a lid for the fish to hide under - I was told that's a good thing to have.
Well the filtered water can run over it and I'll put gravel and stuff there and then maybe I'll get:
1. large material filtered
2 bacteria growing in the filter material
3 alge growing on the plate.
And I've still got the plants in the water.
And I'll settle for that.
And I'll still have green water. I still don't know what to do about that.
But I think all the 4x capacity flow and aeration and good bacteria and algae business is all meant for indoor acquaria.
An outdoor pool in the sun with plants in it is a very different thing I'm surmising after what I've learned here. Especially when it has goldfish (carp, essentially) in it, after what I've read of their tolerance to various conditions...
So I'll do that. And monitor the situation.
Perplexing things.
UV gadget to clean the water? But what about the fierce 45 degree C heat all day - the rays of that sun would be strong in UV wouldn't they?
And UV creates the algae, right? And algae is basically good, right?
I confuse bacteria and algae, I think. Algae in sunlight is good. Bacteria in the dark is good. Both doing the same thing: converting ammonia to nitrates, right?
The filter... what's it doing? Nothing. Maybe growing bacteria on the filter wool is all. That's good. Certainly growing lots of black gunk.. is that the bacteria? Blocks the filter in the end..
People here got nothing but an intake 'bucket' or 'cage', 'box' housing a pump packed in some filter material much the same as mine.
And been working well for years apparently.
Well that's what I've got - except I've no room in the tub for an intake bucket to I've got an outflow bucket. Same thing.
And it's working at 800Litres per hour. Why? And another little pump working at 150 litres/hour I think. Why? Maybe both aerating the water a little bit.
See? I still don't know.
So I'm thinking I'll just cut out the 'big' pump and retain the 'big' bucket (normal household 10 litre plastic bucket - 2 gal US probably ) and run the little pump into it.
And I'll let it run onto a flat plate at the end of the tub, which provides a lid for the fish to hide under - I was told that's a good thing to have.
Well the filtered water can run over it and I'll put gravel and stuff there and then maybe I'll get:
1. large material filtered
2 bacteria growing in the filter material
3 alge growing on the plate.
And I've still got the plants in the water.
And I'll settle for that.
And I'll still have green water. I still don't know what to do about that.
But I think all the 4x capacity flow and aeration and good bacteria and algae business is all meant for indoor acquaria.
An outdoor pool in the sun with plants in it is a very different thing I'm surmising after what I've learned here. Especially when it has goldfish (carp, essentially) in it, after what I've read of their tolerance to various conditions...
So I'll do that. And monitor the situation.
Abrogard,
I am not a real efficianado of pond works, but have learned quite a lot by trial and error and a great deal since I became a member here.
There are two types of bacteria that you desire. Nitrosonomas which converts ammonia to nitrites and Nitrobacter which converts the nitrites to nitrates (safe for fish).
Both like the dark, but need oxygen and regulated temperatures. Optimum range of temps for these bacteria is somewhere between 77 and 86 degrees F (25-30 C). That is when the highest growth and repopulation will occur if all other conditions are met. Both will die at or near 32 F and 120 F.
Nitrates are acceptable to fish, but can spur the growth of algae. Some forms of algae are acceptable. Some are not. Certain forms of algae clog drains and filters and make a mess. They die off and add to the detritus (decaying vegatation) in the pond which creates more pollutants that you don't want. Some algae can be toxic, some just grow so prolific that it strangles your pond and some just make your pond water so green that you can't tell if you have any fish in there or if you are just making pea soup for an army.
Other vegetation (plants) can absorb the nitrates as nutrients and reduce the potential for algae to grow. Best practice is to select plants which love this environment and they can remove the nitrates before the algae go nuts with it. All ponds will have some algae. The trick is to create the proper balance so that you have a nice pond for your fishies and you can see them and don't have to struggle to maintain it.
UV clarifiers will kill off unwanted bacteria (but also the good) as well as killing off single cell algae - the type which makes the pond water unclear and "pea-soupish". Direct sun may actually promote specific forms of algae, but kill others. I personally believe that it makes no difference regarding the sun or the UV clarifiers if the following water quality aspects are properly controlled: Temperature, O2, CO2, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH. There may be others, but I think you couold have a pond in total shade or total sun and not have an unwanted algae problem if the other conditions are met.
Stay away from any filtration systems which lend to insufficient O2 levels. This leads to the growth of the wrong species of bacteria (aenerobic) which do not perform the tasks we desire and this can lead to foul smelling filter systems and toxic water.
A mechanical filter is a must. Your colony of beneficial bacteria must not be sludged over with gunk from your pond. The bacteria create (secrete) a microscopic slime mass to live in upon the filter media and they are extremely sensitive. If you allow a lot of mud and fish poop and uneaten fish food, etc to collect on their slime-mass homes, it is akin to someone smothering you with a pillow. So you want to clean the water going into the biological filtration stage with a mechanical filter first. This mechanical filter is the one you will need to clean on a specific schedule to prevent it from becoming clogged. Not much of anyway around that cleaning schedule. If your mechanical filter is designed properly, you should never need to clean your biological conversion filter media. The best system design to use for the biological conversion filter is a moving bed filter. But there are other options. Moving bed filters are self maintaining for the most part.
Gordy
I am not a real efficianado of pond works, but have learned quite a lot by trial and error and a great deal since I became a member here.
There are two types of bacteria that you desire. Nitrosonomas which converts ammonia to nitrites and Nitrobacter which converts the nitrites to nitrates (safe for fish).
Both like the dark, but need oxygen and regulated temperatures. Optimum range of temps for these bacteria is somewhere between 77 and 86 degrees F (25-30 C). That is when the highest growth and repopulation will occur if all other conditions are met. Both will die at or near 32 F and 120 F.
Nitrates are acceptable to fish, but can spur the growth of algae. Some forms of algae are acceptable. Some are not. Certain forms of algae clog drains and filters and make a mess. They die off and add to the detritus (decaying vegatation) in the pond which creates more pollutants that you don't want. Some algae can be toxic, some just grow so prolific that it strangles your pond and some just make your pond water so green that you can't tell if you have any fish in there or if you are just making pea soup for an army.
Other vegetation (plants) can absorb the nitrates as nutrients and reduce the potential for algae to grow. Best practice is to select plants which love this environment and they can remove the nitrates before the algae go nuts with it. All ponds will have some algae. The trick is to create the proper balance so that you have a nice pond for your fishies and you can see them and don't have to struggle to maintain it.
UV clarifiers will kill off unwanted bacteria (but also the good) as well as killing off single cell algae - the type which makes the pond water unclear and "pea-soupish". Direct sun may actually promote specific forms of algae, but kill others. I personally believe that it makes no difference regarding the sun or the UV clarifiers if the following water quality aspects are properly controlled: Temperature, O2, CO2, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH. There may be others, but I think you couold have a pond in total shade or total sun and not have an unwanted algae problem if the other conditions are met.
Stay away from any filtration systems which lend to insufficient O2 levels. This leads to the growth of the wrong species of bacteria (aenerobic) which do not perform the tasks we desire and this can lead to foul smelling filter systems and toxic water.
A mechanical filter is a must. Your colony of beneficial bacteria must not be sludged over with gunk from your pond. The bacteria create (secrete) a microscopic slime mass to live in upon the filter media and they are extremely sensitive. If you allow a lot of mud and fish poop and uneaten fish food, etc to collect on their slime-mass homes, it is akin to someone smothering you with a pillow. So you want to clean the water going into the biological filtration stage with a mechanical filter first. This mechanical filter is the one you will need to clean on a specific schedule to prevent it from becoming clogged. Not much of anyway around that cleaning schedule. If your mechanical filter is designed properly, you should never need to clean your biological conversion filter media. The best system design to use for the biological conversion filter is a moving bed filter. But there are other options. Moving bed filters are self maintaining for the most part.
Gordy