Ammonia reading / picture

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Great advise to heed Kim. I also caught you clean your filters a lot? Or really well? How "well" are we talking? Be careful how you clean, the bio portion/pads in particular. Not knowing how you clean them, I'll just say this, you would not want to spray them off with the hose often because the chlorine in the water could kill the good bacteria. Now if you do not have city water, this is not a concern, what I would do is take a 5 gal bucket and put the pads in there and swish them around In there ( will probably have to change a couple times, but your plants will love it, so that's good :) ) to get all the muck off. I would do it this way especially with the ammonia concern.
So how long did you have the extra fish?
 
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Great advise to heed Kim. I also caught you clean your filters a lot? Or really well? How "well" are we talking? Be careful how you clean, the bio portion/pads in particular. Not knowing how you clean them, I'll just say this, you would not want to spray them off with the hose often because the chlorine in the water could kill the good bacteria. Now if you do not have city water, this is not a concern, what I would do is take a 5 gal bucket and put the pads in there and swish them around In there ( will probably have to change a couple times, but your plants will love it, so that's good :) ) to get all the muck off. I would do it this way especially with the ammonia concern.
So how long did you have the extra fish?
Fishylove can I please draw your attention to this article from a friend of mine who is a koi dealer in South Africa.
It may well make you think twiice about just how tougth bacteria is and remebering that bacteria has withstood the riggers of space :-
I think you'll find it nteresting reading to say the least:-

http://www.koi4u.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=18&Itemid=56


rgrds

Dave
 
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Dave, it was an interesting read, but not much to read in regards to details ... Chemicals harm, there wasnt enough info ... Chlorine blastisting out of a hose is a bit iffy for me ... okay, so maybe we may not kill everything, and may not rinse everything off either, but with as over stocked as many systems are, I still see some worry room here. As I write this, I also believe that bacteria lives EVERY where in the pond as well ...

With all this said ... WHAT is the best way to DISINFECT media to be cleaned, dried and stored for the future? So much for my washing in diluted chlorine bleach and water then:-(
 
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I tend to agree with Cape... The chlorine in our water is so bad sometimes in the summer, you can smell and taste it. It is a very thought provoking article. And I know that once a pond is well established, spraying the filter media off with Tap water from the hose would have really little to no effect on the conversion rate. The advise above would have been something i would have given to someone with a brand new pond, and even tho this is not the case, I guess my thoughts were more with the pond over load, and something starting to go amiss in the levels, it would be a good idea to be on the safe side. Again, thank you for the article, I'll be sure to dig deeper :cheerful:
 
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I've tried it in one of my three filters Pieter is a good friend and has a great following in SA he wouldnt print anything that was harmful to koi or the people that follow him and buy from him, it would be rather silly of him wouldnt it .rgrdsDave
 
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No disrespect to your friend Dave, but based on this one short statement, without additional reseach, it doesnt mean a whole lot to me. I could be entirely wrong, but key words I am focusing on is where he says "The medications that are commonly used in our Koi Ponds to eradicate pathogens will not fully penetrate these" ... I dont know that people intentionally use chlorine is ponds as a "medication" ... This just isnt making any sense to me. The CDC advises, in disaster prep, when storing water, to treat it with bleach or iodine, to KILL any bacteria and pathogens to keep it safe for drinking ...
 

crsublette

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Dave 54 said:
I've tried it in one of my three filters Pieter is a good friend and has a great following in SA he wouldnt print anything that was harmful to koi or the people that follow him and buy from him, it would be rather silly of him wouldnt it .rgrdsDave

Ok. Quick disclaimer. Not writing this as an attack so don't get all sensitive and defensive. I am seriously curious about this... If you want to skip these first 2 paragraphs, which is just framing my bias and state of mind, then please skip it and focus like a laser beam on the questions being asking below.


I don't think it would be silly for him to print it even if it did lead to problem. Pieter is safe in both scenarios. Its seems, as long as folk have good intentions, then most advice is deemed fine or, when something goes wrong, then it is something else or claimed as an honest mistake that is overlooked. I think many authors write these articles with "good intentions", but I also think too much credibility is given to "good intentions" instead of actually puting to test what was written, even though he has tested it within his personal experiences. Actually, I do believe there are plenty folk who have sprayed down their filters with chlorinated city water and never had any problems.

I like it when authors write "there are now numerous scientific studies" in attempt to add validity to what they write. This is no different than writing "some say" or "they say" or "a scientist once said". My point is these words only mean something to folk that are not strangers to the author. In other words, these statements are written as if it is common knowledge to the extent of being common sense. For other folk, it would be nice if he could have made a reference, within the context of our of hobby that is freshwater aquaculture, since I assume he knows what he is talking about and read it somewhere rather than making the statement out of thin air due to his experiences, that is limited to his environment. It is the easy trick to do in attempt to add credibility to the author. I bet the author knows what he talks about, but his writing lacks confidence in supporting this when a stranger reads it.



1) There are now numerous scientific studies that have proved beyond doubt that the Biofilm formation of bacteria that adheres to a solid surface is virtually indestructible. It is the leading cause of many nosocomial infections in hospitals growing inside of catheters, and implanted devices. This protective environment can exceed the mass of the microbe cell by over 100X, which makes it a very protective environment from the outside world. The industry has found that Biofilms are so resistant to destruction that is some cases water treatment plants have had to sand-blast the microorganisms from surfaces.

So, if I were to take the author's word for it, then are you telling me that... If I took a high powered pressure washer, which is not as strong as a sand-blaster, to my bio-pads and entire pond, then this will not have an impact whatsoever to any degree on the nitrification cycle in the pond ??

If this is true, then should we power wash our ponds in the Spring every year as is done with the bio-pads ??

I don't think that was the author's point. I think he was bloviating to prove the point that the pressure from a basic garden hose with city regulated chlorinated water gently coming over the bio-pads will have a negligible impact on the population of the bacteria and organisms in the pond's entire biological filtration system.


2) Although a certain amount of growing Biofilm layers may be penetrated, or sloughed off but the newly exposed layers begin to grow that previously laid dormant due to the starvation from nutrients. The Biofilm now starts to rebuild its lost layers. This means that the most common result is a small Biofilm and large free floating bacteria kill rate.

Now we get to the truth of the matter toward the end of his post. This is why I often first read last couple of paragraphs of these articles or blog posts to get to the truth of the matter before reading the entire article or post.


3) The microbes in the Biofilm are almost bulletproof in this sphere of slime and can stay active for days and even weeks when fully dried out. Now one can understand why ponds recover so well after chemical treatment, and why diseases are never fully eradicated. It is due to Biofilm existence and its incredible protective properties.

Ok so. Due to this statement, I am assuming the author absolutely never ever bypasses his bio-filter for any chemical treatments nor any medications nor for absolutely any other reason, never ever. Does the author believe in "never ever" in this subject as the blog post suggests ??

Would the author suggest this, that is spraying down the bio-medium, is fine to do for someone who is going through problems with ammonia accumulation, as is the situation in this thread ??


As a side note, I know there is the thought process of sterilizing the bio-medium actually helps the bio-logical filtration system as well. As is mentioned by Kmuda on oscarfish.com in article1 and article2.



I am looking for clarification moreso than agreement. Agreement is pointless. Nobody learns anything from just agreeing with folk. Clarification is where the learning process resides.
 
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Charles ... I am just starting to reseach this topic ... I am torn between the IF it is so true, then how the hell do we clean filter material to be used in the future ...

As I started above, the CDC advises 1/8th tsp bleach per gallon of stored water ...

Found an older article on my town's water ... this was from 2007, so going to look for newer, but pasting what I have so far ...

Board Approves Year-round
Chlorination of Water Supply
Earlier this year, based on the recommendation
of District Superintendent, David Larkowski, the Board
of Water Commissioners approved the year-round
chlorination of water as it enters the distribution system.
Since 1995, the District has only used chlorination on a part time basis. The primary reason for chlorinating was during the flushing program. Adding chlorine for a few weeks before, during, and for several
weeks after the flushing of water mains and hydrants,
prevented any bacteria growth from occurring during the
flushing program. On the rare occasions when the District has experienced a total count violation, it has been
necessary to turn on the chlorinators to knock the errant
bacteria out of the system. The practice of turning on and
off the addition of chlorine, up to as many as four times
in a year results in inconsistent water quality.
The Water Commissioners had been reluctant to
chlorinate full time due to the objectionable taste and
odor that it often causes. Chlorine is added to the water
at nine locations at a dosage of .4 mg/l (a.k.a parts per
million). As the chlorine mixes with the water in the
distribution system, it becomes diluted so that customers
will generally receive a an average dose of .1 - .2 mg/l in
their homes. At these levels it should cause only a slight
chlorine odor and taste.
The Massachusetts Department of Environmental
Protection advises public water purveyors on best practices . They concurred with the Superintendent’s recommendation, that implementing year-round chlorination
will insure more consistent water quality for our customers at this time.

How do I do the math to see how much is 1/8th per gallon, verses the PPM used in the article?
 

crsublette

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capewind said:
How do I do the math to see how much is 1/8th per gallon, verses the PPM used in the article?
No math needed.

PPM is just a volume ratio measurement. In other words, when measuring water to be 6 ppms of a product, then it will be 6ppms in 50 gallons or 6ppms in 800 gallons. The concentration measurement of the dosage is what will be different. In other words, there is more of the product present in 6ppm of 800 gallons versus 6ppms in 50 gallons. In particular, you are asking about the volume ratio measurement and not the actually concentration measurement of the original dosage.

So, unless there is even further dilution not stated in the above statement before it reaches your house, 1/8th per gallon would still be .1~.2 ppm.
 
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I typo'd Charlies .. it should have read 1/8th of a teaspoon per gallon (CDC disaster prep storage suggestions), verses the articles PPM of my towns usage... Wondering if one concentration is higher than the other ... I am however only confusing myself more, as I am also thinking about the evaporation rate of the chlorine from aeration of the hose ... so on the one hand I am thinking bacteria can not live through the chlorine, thinking about the CDC and town ... and then aeration .... yup, very blonde today LOL ... WHY do I have to over think things LOL ...
 
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Well, I'm back....long day....and goodness......so much information on this thread:)

First off, my pond has never been accurately measured for gallons of water. The man who built it ran into large tree roots so the shape and depth we originally discussed, was changed. He approximated it be around 2000 gallons and the pond is six years old.....it also has a ( gasp!) gravel bottom :(

I tested my PH last night and this morning....both times 8.2. I'm pretty sure I thought it was between 8 and 8.2 the first time I tested my PH. I stopped by the fish hatchery today to get discuss vacuuming and got three references for people who do pond work, as the man who originally built our pond found he couldn't make a living doing it:( I've already spoken with one of the referrals and he will come by on Friday to take a look at my set up. He said he doesn't build ponds with gravel bottoms because of the maintenance. I'll get a quote from him to remove and haul away the gravel. I'm not sure how I feel about this, as I don't have a bottom drain and I've read here that without one, the fish will constantly stir up debris and the water will not appear clear.

Someone asked how I clean my pond. I do wash them with a hose, using tap water. Honestly I don't think swishing them in a bucket would properly clean them.....they get filthy! I'm also discussing additional filtration ideas with the pond man on Friday. I'm not rushing into any big decisions at this time, just wanting to have the pond clean before winter , research over the winter and implement filtration ideas in the spring if possible. He is also willing to take some more of my fish. It's hard to count, but I think I've got another dozen besides the 5 koi.

Thank you all for sharing your experience with me....greatly appreciated. Kim
 
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Tula said:
I'm not sure how I feel about this, as I don't have a bottom drain and I've read here that without one, the fish will constantly stir up debris and the water will not appear clear.
In my experience, this is not true. I do not have a bottom drain either, and my water is very clear, and it's 5ft deep. Yes, I may have to pluck sticks and leaves off the bottom at times, but if your Filtration is Adequate for the amount of fish you have, the fish stirring up the bottom is not a bad thing. You want all areas of the pond to have some type of flow so that the debris doesn't settle in any area of the pond. Which is why ponders do not like rocks on the bottom. So the fish are doing you a favor by " stirring up" the water then the pump will pick it all up and send it to your mechanical filter then on to your bio filter. Before I built the bog, I hardly ever had to clean the bio filter, and cleaned the mechanical filter only once a week. Both cleaned In a Bucket...
 

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Good luck Tula! Sounds like you are on the right track. :claphands:

Sounds like you found a fella that might know what he is talking.
 

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