White foam

[vertigo72]

Im getting a fair amount of white foam on my pond. It collects in to a nice pile in my temporary makeshift skimmer, see pics. It seems to be produced anywhere water is stirred, in the aerator, and the outflow of both filters.

This is the collection of a single night:

Its hard to make a picture that really show the water surface, its like there is some saliva on most of the surface, even though the water is still fairly clear. This pic shows it somewhat, find the koi:

What I read is that white foam is caused by excessive dissolved organic compounds, but I kinda wonder where those would come from, given this is a recently cleaned and refilled pond, its pretty large and I barely feed a small handful of food per day to my small number of fish. I also have a fair amount of plants, mostly iris.

Any other ideas where does comes from or what I can do about it?

 

[mogsie]

wow nice pond, must be a big job keeping it empty of debris with all them trees around it, you will also get alot of dead decaying leaves from them irises, i have iris also (not as many as you) and i spend a bit of time every now and then stripping the dead leaves away from the base of the iris plants,

 

[addy1]

We get the foam off and on in our hot tub that is kept clean with chemicals and a filter. Dust, pollen etc can add doc, I don't recall exactly, but I think this is where people use a polishing filter......or the foam fractionator to clean it up.

The ones that have this issue will chime in.

 

[vertigo72]

wow nice pond, must be a big job keeping it empty of debris with all them trees around it, ,

Yeah, indeed. On a windy day you wouldnt believe how much ends up in there. On google earth you cant even see my pond, you see a forest lol. So I do need a skimmer really. The makeshift tub does a perfect job, but its kinda ugly and (I have to adjust its depth almost every day). But as long as thats running, removing debris is 2 minutes per day. The entire pond circulates, so eventually everything ends up in there.

you will also get alot of dead decaying leaves from them irises, i have iris also (not as many as you) and i spend a bit of time every now and then stripping the dead leaves away from the base of the iris plants

Really? I pretty much have zero decaying leaves on the iris, all green, always. I do cut them to the ground 2 or 3x per year. After they are done blossoming next week or so, I will cut them for the first time this year, then again in summer and late autum. They are in clay though, and they seem to love that. I got a few in baskets with iris in my filter that are in substrate, and they dont do nearly as well, with plenty of brown and knackered leaves.

 

[addy1]

Why do you cut them to the ground? This is my first time with iris in a pond.

 

[vertigo72]

We get the foam off and on in our hot tub that is kept clean with chemicals and a filter. Dust, pollen etc can add doc, I don't recall exactly, but I think this is where people use a polishing filter......or the foam fractionator to clean it up.

Yeah Ive pondering about making a foam fractionator. In fact I already made a prototype a month ago, and it managed to produce a bit of foam, but not much and I didnt manage to get it out. But that was when my water was still pure tap water, and I didnt get foam on the pond.

Its not so easy to build one that works well, especially not for the relatively high flow rates I would have to feed it, but perhaps I should try again. Certainly looks like a good ff ought to be able to produce lots of foam. The foam in my skimmer is really dry and firm, it stays like foam for hours in a bucket.

Then again, perhaps I should wait until summer before spending a lot of time. I currently have almost no oxygen plants, and Im hoping that will cure it more easily. Also thinking if I get rid of all the docs, they wont grow. Already Im not measuring any nitrates whatsoever, the iris work "too good", and most other plants dont do well at all.

 

[vertigo72]

Why do you cut them to the ground? This is my first time with iris in a pond.

Because then they have to grow again :lol:. And they sure do. I think of it as removing several wheel barrows worth of organic material each time. Those plants are 20+ years old, its not like they have suffered from being cut so often.

 

[vertigo72]

Been discussing this through PM with fishin4cars. I wasnt quite ready to accept it was dissolved organic compounds, because the place it occurred mostly was the outflow of my iris bog, which supposedly would greatly help reduce DOCs. Here is a pic I just snapped at night:

Then Fishin4cars mentioned an UV killing algae. And sure enough, the iris filter is fed by my smallest pump, which is the only one to passes a 35W UV light.

Its not the iris causing this, its the UV thats killing algae, thereby producing tons of DOCs. Goes to show how well the UV actually works lol.

Thanks fishin, mystery solved. Now I just need to do something about it

 

[fishin4cars]

Your Welcome Vertigo, always glad to try and help,

 

[vertigo72]

Vertigo's foam fractionator version 0.2

Water is sprayed on top, from 2 pumps (8K and 15K liter pumps). The wide piping is 160mm. The top part is filled with bioballs. The water level reaches just below the Y. Below that, and in the Y I put a long filter brush and I added an airstone. Its been running an hour now, and it actually seems to work somewhat.

Interestingly, at least as much foam is produced in my vortex/brush barrel.

Which perhaps isnt such a bad thing as the outflow for that barrel is below water level, so I can actually skim it from there as well by closing the outflow for a few seconds.

 

[fishin4cars]

Yertigo, Why is the brush in the out flow tube for the foam? Not sure why that is there, My thinking is remove the brush there and possibly adding a short piece of pipe where the foam has to climb past the Y. The foam will climb and remove the DOC's up and out and should slow down what your getting in the next chamber.
Also, if the foam continues in the vortex one of two things may need to be looked at, one Raise the Y up some for a longer contact time form the air, second, It may need to be moved to after the Vortex, I have a feeling your actually fighting the Foam fractionator against the vortex, Your not really wanting to remove particles in the fractionator just the foam.

 

[vertigo72]

Yertigo, Why is the brush in the out flow tube for the foam?

For three reasons; first, it makes the water splash a bit extra between the top of the Y (where the bio balls start) and the water level, below the Y. Secondly, it helps the foam "climb out". There might be better solutions for that (see below), but without the brush, no foam left the Y. Lastly, I figure it slows the airbubbles in the bottom pipe, giving more contact time. I will have to find out if there is a risk of clogging though.

My thinking is remove the brush there and possibly adding a short piece of pipe where the foam has to climb past the Y. The foam will climb and remove the DOC's up and out and should slow down what your getting in the next chamber.

Not sure what you mean here. I was thinking of adding a large bottle top in the part of the Y where the foam is, is that what you mean? Or adding a vertical pipe on the mostly horizontal part before going to the vertex?

Also, if the foam continues in the vortex one of two things may need to be looked at, one Raise the Y up some for a longer contact time form the air

? If I raise it even more, there is even less chance of foam coming out. I think the real problem here is that the waterflow is pretty large, its going to suck DOC and foam along with it no matter what I do, at least in a counter current setup. But if anything, I thought of lowering the Y. Im pretty sure more foam is produced above than below the Y.

second, It may need to be moved to after the Vortex, I have a feeling your actually fighting the Foam fractionator against the vortex, Your not really wanting to remove particles in the fractionator just the foam.

Yeah I agree.. problem is after the vortex, I dont have pressure anymore. So the choice is doing it like I do now, or dedicating one pump to the fractionator. Seems a bit of a waste to do that, if Ive already pumped the water there, I may as well run it through the filter.

 

[fishin4cars]

For three reasons; first, it makes the water splash a bit extra between the top of the Y (where the bio balls start) and the water level, below the Y. Secondly, it helps the foam "climb out". There might be better solutions for that (see below), but without the brush, no foam left the Y. Lastly, I figure it slows the airbubbles in the bottom pipe, giving more contact time. I will have to find out if there is a risk of clogging though.



Not sure what you mean here. I was thinking of adding a large bottle top in the part of the Y where the foam is, is that what you mean? Or adding a vertical pipe on the mostly horizontal part before going to the vertex?

I was thinking adding pipe, not much just a little at the Y , the foam actualy will climb once it's producing well. Even in the little protien skimmer I'm using the foam sometimes in the morning will stand a full foot straingt up out of the pipe by itself.


? If I raise it even more, there is even less chance of foam coming out. I think the real problem here is that the waterflow is pretty large, its going to suck DOC and foam along with it no matter what I do, at least in a counter current setup. But if anything, I thought of lowering the Y. Im pretty sure more foam is produced above than below the Y.

Look what you saying. More foam being produced above the Y. lol



Yeah I agree.. problem is after the vortex, I dont have pressure anymore. So the choice is doing it like I do now, or dedicating one pump to the fractionator. Seems a bit of a waste to do that, if Ive already pumped the water there, I may as well run it through the filter.

yea, I figured that was the reasoning on that, the better placement would be further down the line of the system but at the same time your right you would need to dedicate a seperate pump for the fractionator.

 

[vertigo72]

Look what you saying. More foam being produced above the Y. lol

Yeah, so if I move the Y further up as you suggested, I will have less space for the bioballs that probably do the bulk of the foaming. So Im not sure I understand. Unless you meant making the entire thing higher, but thats not an option, I will lose too much waterflow due to pumphead. Its already nearly 2m high.

yea, I figured that was the reasoning on that, the better placement would be further down the line of the system but at the same time your right you would need to dedicate a seperate pump for the fractionator.

Perhaps I should move it to the other side of the pond where the UV and iris bed is. Its probably better there, right after the UV. But I dont have airstones there and the pump isnt as powerful.

Ah well, Ill see. Its v0.2 after all and its already foaming, that more than I was hoping for TBH.

 

[fishin4cars]

, I would run it where it is now, you know your getting some foam where it is so fine tuning it where it is is probably your best option. I agree by the UV would probably be a better spot but sometime you got to work with and around what you arleady have.