Water Changes

[barryian]

Hi - I recall a conversation re: pros and cons on water changes. I did a search and can't find anything so I decided to start a new thread.
I opened my pond Feb 27th and did a 20-25% water change. It seems some people on the forum say they're pretty much not necessary, something that I can't really wrap my arms around. For 24 years I've done water changes every 2 weeks, maybe 3, but usually 2 weeks at most. Last year I did a couple of pp treatments. The water looked and stayed like glass aside from the fact the water parameters were perfect. I did fewer water changes with no problem.

So this year, it's now 5-6 weeks since a water change, but it's still cool with much less feeding and I'm wondering. Being my water looks fine, the testing parameters are perfect, should I do a 10% changes to at least backwash the bead filter.
The media looks perfect through the see through top.

My other thought was parasites and bacteria. They're there, we all have them but won't water changes keep the level down or is it enough to assume with good water quality and healthy fish, whatever is lurking in the water isn't going to matter? Why do we do water changes? If something is off we might do a change but I always thought it was reduce the level of aeromonas and pseudomonas along with other predators that could attack our fish. Beside, they multiply so how do we keep them at bay without changes?
Any thoughts?

 

[cas]

Hi @barryian - is this the thread you were thinking of?
https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/water-changes.18187/

 

[Lisak1]

I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions on this topic. I'll just say that, in six years with this pond, we have never done a water change. We top off, but we never take water out of the pond. That's our style of pond keeping and it works for our pond. My husband came from an aquarium background and it took him a while to give up the idea of water testing and water changes. but as time went on he relaxed and realized a pond is not an aquarium and the methods of managing each is very different.

 

[barryian]

Hi @barryian - is this the thread you were thinking of?
https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/water-changes.18187/

Yes Cas, that was it! Thanks. Great looking pond and garden btw, Cas!

Re: The link ... nothing was really definitive after reading that. Just opinions! I've been doing the same thing for so many years, I thought I recalled the few that said they didn't do changes. I don't know anyone personally who doesn't do water changes and have never in all my years of ponding read contrary. Many of us have pre-filters and bead filters that need backwashing which goes without saying. Water has to be replaced then. I'm thinking all these non water changing people on the forum most likely have bogs without bead filters. I wonder. @Lisak1 ... Do you have a bead filter, main drain, skimmer or UV? or ... do you run off a bog or trickle? Just curious since you do no changes. I'll continue doing water changes for sure as my setup is not a complete ecosystem.

 

[DrCase]

When I clean my filters I'm getting rid of a lot of nasty water.
I do it every week then I fill the ponds back up

 

[Lisak1]

Yup - our "wetland" filter is our only filtration.

 

[addy1]

Yup - our "wetland" filter is our only filtration.

Same here. Rain does my water changes.

 

[cas]

I'll continue doing water changes for sure as my setup is not a complete ecosystem.

That is where I stand. I still vacuum the bottom of the pond about once a month and replace about 10% of the water.

 

[barryian]

When I clean my filters I'm getting rid of a lot of nasty water.
I do it every week then I fill the ponds back up

ing?


Nice looking natural pond there. .... and as I, with all that 2" piping and filter, backwashing is a must. Do you remove more than just what you lose in back washing? Would you agree, it helps in keeping the koi attacking little creatures at bay? As far as Lisa and Addy, I thought it was a bog so not much maintenance. @DrCase What size is that setup of yours in gallons?

Not sure where that ing? is from ...lol

 

[Meyer Jordan]

In the twenty (20) years that I was in business, I never did a water change in my ponds or in any of the ponds that I serviced Nor did I recommend water changes to any customer. Never a reported problem in water quality or fish health that could be directly attributed to the absence of water changes. (Only health issue was an outbreak of CyHV3).

As to reducing parasite and pathogen levels, a 20% water change will only reduce these populations 20%....hardly prophylactic This same water change also reduces natural predation on these negative organisms by 20%.....again not a positive move. Add to this the proven fact that the fish may be stressed if pond water and source water parameters such as temperature and pH are not closely matched.

Some say that water changes are done to replace lost trace minerals. How does one know if they are lost and which minerals were the ones lost and what level should they be at? How does one know what trace minerals are in the source water? Are they the right ones in the right quantities? Seems similar to tossing a pond treatment into the water column because one thinks that something is wrong and also not knowing what the cause is.

 

[barryian]

I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions on this topic. I'll just say that, in six years with this pond, we have never done a water change. We top off, but we never take water out of the pond. That's our style of pond keeping and it works for our pond. My husband came from an aquarium background and it took him a while to give up the idea of water testing and water changes. but as time went on he relaxed and realized a pond is not an aquarium and the methods of managing each is very different.

I think it's great if @Lisak1 you can have a system running like that. I understand it, I've just never implemented it, nor knew about that type of natural bog system until a maybe 5 years ago. It sounds like zero stress & maintenance , especially if you're on vacation. Nice pond and garden ...btw ....
I don't have the room as were in the suburbs on a 1/5 acre with an in ground pool. There's no room anymore to create a bog and after 2 rebuilds in 24 years, the last only 3 years ago, it is what it is. But I'm quite happy with it and though I tinker out of love, cut pvc, glue additional toys, that's become a fun love, not work. I actually have been running since I rebuilt, using state of the art equipment & I have to say, I've been running now into my 4th season problematic free. With exception of a UV bulb change, a LED light replacement and a bad Uvinex replaced at NC has been it. Always have spare parts and pumps but so far, so good. Usually go away a few times a year and have one of my daughters or son in laws check in and feed them 2-3 times a week.
That's my story in a nutshell !!! It's all good! Not perfect, just all good! ....

 

[barryian]

In the twenty (20) years that I was in business, I never did a water change in my ponds or in any of the ponds that I serviced Nor did I recommend water changes to any customer. Never a reported problem in water quality or fish health that could be directly attributed to the absence of water changes. (Only health issue was an outbreak of CyHV3).

As to reducing parasite and pathogen levels, a 20% water change will only reduce these populations 20%....hardly prophylactic This same water change also reduces natural predation on these negative organisms by 20%.....again not a positive move. Add to this the proven fact that the fish may be stressed if pond water and source water parameters such as temperature and pH are not closely matched.

Some say that water changes are done to replace lost trace minerals. How does one know if they are lost and which minerals were the ones lost and what level should they be at? How does one know what trace minerals are in the source water? Are they the right ones in the right quantities? Seems similar to tossing a pond treatment into the water column because one thinks that something is wrong and also not knowing what the cause is.

I was waiting for you Meyer, hahaha and appreciate your input as it always makes sense. In a bog setup like you had, Lisa, and Addy for ex: don't the bad guys build up exponentially? How can they not? As far as 20%, it is 20% and as adverse as you are to doing a pp treatment, I do it as a prophylactic in the spring and fall. Never had a problem, ever. I don't advise it for the beginner, nor for any who might find it stressful to themselves over the fish. If the the fish seem happy & playful prior to pp treatments, you should see them after it's finished. Maybe they're so happy it's over, they're euphoric... lol

There's an article somewhere still online and maybe you read it. This gentleman who does pp on a weekly basis because his wife loves the glassy looking perfect water, especially when they have a party or guests. I thought it was interesting & crazy, a lot of work and well, couldn't see a benefit except ascetics. Maybe borders on maniacal.
Not sure what all that does to the fish and sure seems like a lot of work, as you lose a day in the life each week.

I wonder how many fish / koi are lost in bogs vs my type of setup? Bogs and closed systems as I have or Dr Case has seem to be night and day. Not saying one is better or worse. I'm sure they both have their pros and cons.
Also, My tap water is 8.2 usually and my pond 8.4 so a water change doesn't affect the numbers. I occasionally check the tap, though. My filtration is 3 times overkill so numbers never seem to be a problem. If I never tested anything except kH, I'd probably be fine.

 

[Lisak1]

We've never lost a fish - koi or goldfish - to parasites or disease. Lost a couple to a skunk, but that's another story!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

If the the fish seem happy & playful prior to pp treatments, you should see them after it's finished. Maybe they're so happy it's over, they're euphoric... lol

Maybe they are exhibiting a stress reaction. They have been irritated.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

In a bog setup like you had, Lisa, and Addy for ex: don't the bad guys build up exponentially? How can they not?

Do the bad guys build up in your filter? That is what a 'bog' basically is with the added feature of plants growing in it. The bad guys are still controlled by the 'good guys' who eat them. It is all part of the balance of Nature.