Water changes to eliminate ammonia?

[Cdsdave]

I check my water weekly and this is the first time I have gotten a reading of 0.25 ppm for ammonia and nitrites. 2000 gal pond with 10 fish. 4 Koi and 6 comets. I've been feeding them 2 times a day with tetra pond flake food and some pellets. They eat what I give them within 5 to 10 min and scavenge the bottom and sides for further meals. My questions are should water changes be enough to deal with these elevated numbers? I did a 10% and 5% water change respectively the last 2days. Used city water that I treated with a dechlorinator to add fresh back in. I used the back wash on my pressure filter to remove the water. Is it okay to do water changes that way or will it remove the beneficial bacteria as well. I know to back wash till the water runs clear when cleaning the filter just am not sure if it's okay to do prolonged back wash to remove water. My owners manual does not say. It's a tetra filter with bio beads. I have 3 water hyacinth, 2 water lilies, and 3 other plants in the pond along with filter pads in the spillway. Those should help trap the ammonia and nitrites correct? I don't want to get into using chemicals if I can avoid it but I do want to nip this in the bud to keep my fish friends happy). Thanks for your help in advance all!!

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello
Yes Water changes will help remove ammo.
I would suggest upping to maybe 25 % water changes every other day until your Beneficial Bacteria grows/Catches up to your fish load.
BB is not growing in the water per sey it grows in side the filters on the rocks on the side of the liner.
I don't think back washing would kill your BB the only way I see it dieing if the filter ran dry or no water flow for a hour or so.

Well a lot of people think or say that plants use ammonia and I just don't agree
Ammonia at least high ammo will kill burn the roots of plants so I don't think they will use the ammo all that much.
When you fertilize read the ingredients you will see very small amounts of ammo if any.
You will see Nitrates and Phosphates.

I see you are on City water have you tested that water for ammo or Pho's ?
My water has Pho's so I have to keep a eye on that and I have had a occasion of small amounts or ammo not enough to hurt a human since we are not drinking it 24/7
put in a sealed place such as a pond or tank the concentration and get up there rather quickly.

I would also stop using flake foods as they desolve rather quickly and can cause water quality problems.
And maybe cut down feeding to once a day or twice but half of what you are giving them now.

Ruben

 

[Mmathis]

Don't know about your filter set-up, but I remove water via the drain on my Rubbermaid SKIPPY filter when I do water changes. My Rubbermaid is 100 gals, so I will empty it, then fill & empty for however many gallons I want to remove. Like Ruben said, the beneficial bacteria are on the filter media (and other surfaces), so I don't think you have to worry about depleting that. Just be sure the media stays moist, in contact with water while you're draining. I'm not sure what the tolerance level is for keeping the BB alive.

 

[Cdsdave]

Hi Ruben, Yes I have tested our city water and there was no trace of ammonia or phosphate at that time. I do treat it each time I do a water change. I've cut back on the amount of food and am trying to use more pellets then flakes. The little guys can't get there mouths around the pellets I'm using so I still give them flakes.

I'm using Laguna fertilizer sticks for the plants which claim are safe for fish.

Thanks for the responses Ruben and Turtle!

 

[HTH]

How long has the pond had fish in it ? If it is less then 2 months your filter is still cycling and I would not bother to change the water at .25PPM ammonia. Worst case you will end up with some green water as algae lends a hand while the filter catches up. It should clear when the filter is fully cycled.

 

[Cdsdave]

Hi HTH, it's been 6 weeks since I added the fish. This is the first week though that I've gotten a reading above 0 ppm for either ammonia or nitrites. I did do an additional 10 % change today which will be my last for awhile. I spoke with a pond shop owner today who said something similar as you. He said the filter may need to catch up with the current feeding/waste load and not to worry about 0.25ppm. He said as long as it doesn't reach and stay at 0.50 ppm to not worry about water changes. He did say that although there are other ways to reduce ammonia beside water changes, the only way to reduce nitrites was a water change. Thanks for your input!

 

[D&RW]

couple products out there that claim to bind ammonia. i have used them in the past and prefer Amquel. the only time i've had ammonia problems is one time when i messed up our filter cleaning it too aggressively. won't do that again.

if your only filter has a backflush feature, does it also have a simple waste feature, i.e. you can drain the pond w/o disturbing the BB.

 

[Cdsdave]

D&RW, I spoke with Tetra regarding using the back flush to do water changes and they said that is the technique to use. I am concerned about disturbing the BB so will only do small water changes more frequently as opposed to 25% changes at a time.

 

[HTH]

A few things.

Small water changes do almost nothing to reduce the level of anything. Do the math it does not lie.

Water changes do little to disturb the bacteria. The overwhelming vast majority of the bacteria is on the surfaces in your pond and filter. A 25% change is no big deal if you dechlore, don't mess up the pH or temperature. You can refill the pond directly from the hose if you set the water speed to do the refill over a period of hours.

The bio filter needs to adjust to the current rate of ammonia production by your fish. If you bind it up you prevent that and waste money. If you want to play that game use zeolite which is sold as horse stall freshener at tractor supply and similar. But put the zeolite after the bio filter so the filter has first chance at the ammonia.

I assume you are back flushing with pond water. Doing so with tap water would kill off the bacteria.

 

[Cdsdave]

Yes I'm doing the back flush with pond water. There's a dial on the filter that you just turn and it redirects the water out another outlet. I'm not sure how other filters work, if that is the norm. This is my first everything pond related. I want to get some zeolite to have on hand just in case. Don't want to disturb the natural process any more than I have to.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Plants will help as they grow larger, and when the benificial bacteria gets going. The benifical bacteria converts the nitrites to nitrates, (ammonia nitrate is a fertilizer) now you have something the plants can eat! Have you added any benificial bacteria?

 

[HTH]

Colleen I have been doing some reading and learned that plants prefer ammonia to nitrates. So not only do the plants help reduce nitrates they also give the bio filter a hand.

One can keep fish without a bio filter if you have enough sun and keep them in green water (single cell suspended algae). This is why one should not be trying to kill the algae in a new pond. They key is to manage the density of the algae. Frequent large water changes are needed to keep it in check. This is not unlike using water changes to manage ammonia, but the algae consumes the ammonia and it is easier on the fish. Maybe fewer changes are needed. We can start a thread on that if there is interest.

 

[callingcolleen1]

I read that the bacteria convert the nitrites to nitrates... and that would give you (ammonia-nitrate) which feeds the plants. Without this step, the ammonia itself can damage the plants, look for yellow tips or yellowing of the plants, which can indicate a harmful buildup of ammonia. If you get to the point where there is yellowing of your water plants, it may be good to do a part water change.

Algae is a simple plant and it does have a good purpose I agree. Fish will eat the algae and it will help rid the pond of excess nutrients which can lead to deadly ammonia spikes. Deadly ammonia spikes occur right before morning, and deadly ammonia spikes are not always registered on ammonia test kits, and may not be detected if you are testing the water during the day. Deadly ammonia spikes can occur if the waters surface is smothered with too many floating water plants, trapping gasses and reducing oxygen in the pond during the wee hours of the early morning.

You can buy different types of bacteria, some will help get rid pond of sludge, and some bacteria will convert the nitrites to nitrates.

 

[HTH]

I read that the bacteria convert the nitrites to nitrates... and that would give you (ammonia-nitrate) which feeds the plants. Without this step, the ammonia itself can damage the plants, look for yellow tips or yellowing of the plants, which can indicate a harmful buildup of ammonia. If you get to the point where there is yellowing of your water plants, it may be good to do a part water change.

I too used to think that the plants required the bio filter to create nitrates from ammonia but it is not true.. Plants prefer to use ammonia directly. Low levels of ammonia like you have in a mature system will not burn the plants. I have a quote in another thread linked to research with aquatic plants that illustrate this.

​The basics of the explanation is that for plants to use nitrates they must reverse the conversion from nitrate to ammonia, so it is just easier for them to use ammonia directly if it is available. But as always it is not as simple as that and there is a good deal of debate.

The net can be very slow to move off of an idea once it is entrenched.

 

[Nepen]

This is the first time I heard that if the ammonia is staying at 0.5 for the new pond, I should leave it be. My ammonia and nitrate level has been at 0.25-0.5 for the past two weeks (Nitrite at 0). I have my fish for 4 weeks now. My fish are doing great, eating and very active. My lotus on the other hand, not doing so good (still a baby, and the new leafs are turning black before it even open).

I was planing on doing a water change in a few days, but after reading this topic, I may as well sit put and wait for my good bacteria to catch up. Is that correct?

I just added more media in the filter too, hoping to get more bacteria. I have 4 kinds of media now.