switch off pump ?

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sat out by the pond earlier, the temp outside is -2 celcius now and will get colder through the night, the water hasnt started to freeze yet, but i was wondering would i be better to switch off the pump to stop circulation, as the pump will be pulling the slightly warmer water from the bottom and putting it back in at the top, so would it be benificial for the fish if i turned off now ?? just to leave some milder water at the bottom ?
 

HARO

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Place the pump on a plastic crate or other pedestal so that it's about half way down, and won't disturb the bottom water. John
 
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With the pump on or off the water temp in ponds is the same top to bottom when not iced over. Wind alone is enough to stir the water, fish swimming, etc. Lakes generally have to be more than 18' deep before stratification occurs. In ponds stratification can happen as soon as the pond ices over, 32F just under the ice and maybe 39F at the bottom. I think if salt has been added it messes up temp too, but I can't remember the details.

So in a mild freeze area the fish would probably appreciate the pump being off, letting the pond freeze over, and having a bit warmer water at the bottom.

Cold water holds a lot of O2, decay just about stops so it isn't using O2 and the fish slow down. So I'd think trying to keep an opening in the ice at the expense of colder water is not a good trade unless the ice remains for weeks.
 
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Excellent idea Andy. Super cheap, easy and accurate way to determine exactly what's going on in a specific pond.

And if you wanted to know the temp under the ice you could suspend 2 of the probe type cooking thermometers at 2 levels. After the ice freezes you can go out, plug in the probe and take a reading. A probe with a long wire and one that can measure below 32F would be best. These work great, I use them for cooking.
 
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but surely there must be an effect regardless of the pond depth ! as i know from summer when i got in to my pond with my shorts on the water was noticably warmer at the surface than it was at the bottom ! so surely it must have a reverse effect during winter ! where the surface will be colder than the bottom, as the remaining water temp is being radiated to the air around it ! thus reducing the surface temperature ! as an experiment i filled my bath full of hot water and left it for 2 hours and the surface had cooled more than the surface and that is only 18 inch deep ! (then i had to let it out as mirka wanted a shower) !! tut tut women always get in the way of scientific research ! must do temp readings on pond surface and bottom !!
 

koiguy1969

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higher salt levels can lower the freeze point of the water ...but smaller amounts of salt are fine....most garden ponders who salt dont maintain salt levels adequate to cause any issues...if you do salt your pond jusy quit adding at waterchanges 6 weeks or so before closing down the pond. and maybe do an extra 20 - 25% final change.
 

j.w

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So do I understand correctly that the water must be very deep in order for there to be a warmth at the bottom and cooler on top or if let it freeze over then warmth on the bottom no matter the depth?
 

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Heat from the ground will keep the water at the bottom from getting down to 32*F unless it is so cold that the pond freezes solid. I would imagine that extra depth would allow for slightly warmer water at the bottom.
 

j.w

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Mine will never freeze solid and will only get a bit of ice on it normally. I think the goldies will be fine here even if I leave the falls running during the coldest weather. Being near the septic tanks/drain field is supposed to add some heat they say also.
 
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Mogsie, it would make sense that in summer your pond would be warmer at the surface, assuming very still conditions, no pump. Although I'm not sure how accurate the human body, and human interpretation would be as an accurate thermometer. I'd be interest in results if you measure your bath, but I'd be betting serious cash that you couldn't get a bath to stratify in any conditions other than laboratory.

Minnowman has the answer with density. Water is most dense at 39F. So, if calm, that water falls and colder water rises. The coldest water, 32.1F rises right to the surface and freezes. Most of us know about warm water rising but that's only true above 39F (4C). It's because what we were taught isn't exactly right. It isn't temperature causing all this, it's density. Temperature is only one thing that affect density. It isn't actually true that warmer water rises.

Ground Effect
However, heat from the ground, while it does transfer heat to the pond, doesn't affect stratification. At the bottom the water would be 39F, the ground then heats it to 39.1F and what does it do...it rises, because it is less dense, into the cooler water above and it cools. It isn't the warmth in the ground making this work. Strangely enough, if the ground under the pond were frozen, which can't really happen, the exact same process would occur. The 39F water touching the bottom would cool to say 38.9F and it would also rise, just as the 39.1F water did. Of course in this theoretical case the pond would freeze solid in short order. Just shows how strange water acts.

Also, sun light coming through the ice, assuming little snow, would warm the water right under the ice causing that water to sink.

It's purely density that causes stratification, and of course still water is needed. I'd say the ice cap is essential for thermal stratification in 3', 4' deep ponds. Even the fish being motionless on the bottom is important.

Opening in Ice
I assume keeping an opening in the ice would break any thermal stratification because there would be movement. Certainly a pump, I'm not sure about a heater on the surface, depends on exact setup. It could make the entire water column colder than 39F, maybe very close to 32F depending on conditions. With salt at 1ppt the freezing temp drops to 31.899F so in that case the water could be below 32F. At those levels we're getting into where fish can't survive. They can take temps below 32F, but not for long periods.

This is kind of why I'm a bit concerned with the thinking that a hole in ice must be maintained. It takes a while for the lack of gas exchange to become a problem. It's a tough choice, but I think it should at least be an informed choice.

Salt
I've forgotten about the exact effect of salt so I looked it up. Water with 1ppt salt (0.1%, normal pond deal) would be most dense at a little higher temp, like 39.5F. So I assume 1ppt salt would make the bottom a bit warmer. BUT, I don't think I understand the whole story so I'd take that with a grain of salt. I live in Phoenix, so I'll leave it to others to research the real answer.
 

addy1

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With my air pump running the pond is sitting at 40 right now. The aerator is around 20 feet from the deep end, where the fish hang out. The fish swim around off and on or just do the pause mode. They are eating something, see poops strings hanging out, so they are still metabolizing food.

We have been as cold at 18, the coldest the surface water dropped to was 34, I do not have a way to measure the deep water temperature.

The fish have been hanging out two places
>> right below the piece of liner I have floating for them, within a foot of the surface.
>>low pond level, around 4 feet down in the five foot deep area.

They still swim out into the main pond off and on, do group swims.
It is fun to watch them via the underwater camera to see how they are doing. So far all is looking great.

I put in some nice led lights, so now, with this early dark, we can watch them until later at night. Our tv screen is a nice no work fish tank!
 
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If someone did want to do the experiment I do think the probe type thermometer would be needed. A thermometer on a string would probably change as it was brought to the surface and read. We are talking about only slight differences.
 
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please excuse the bath experiment, i had quite a bit of homebrew when i thaught that would be a good idea !! LOL, i get what you are saying waterbug, so it will be better to turn off the pump, this isnt exactly a mild freeze area, last year we got down to -28c which is -18 fahrenhiet, this year we are expecting -20c to -22c, so it does get pretty cold,
 

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