SUNFISH AND GARDEN PONDS? POSSIBLE "PREDATOR CONTROL," BUT WHAT ABOUT COMPATIBILITY?

[Mmathis]

NATURAL PREDATOR CONTROL!! No, not controlling predators, but control VIA predators. Questioning whether a sunfish called the "REDEAR SUNFISH" would be compatible with goldfish? Don't know if these guys school. But just a single one would have to do.

A NATURAL PREDATOR OF DISEASE-CARRYING SNAILS!! This particular sunfish is reportedly less likely than others to bother eating other fish (though eggs & fry are always at risk) and loves snails! Is a bottom-ish feeder and also eats insects. It grows to around 5"-6" and lives about 4 years. And is a native fish for the Southeast. If this looked feasible, I would only consider getting a fish that was, raised not caught.

I just did some very interesting (seriously!) reading of studies done to control snails in "cultured" ponds (ponds used to grow food-fish). This particular study was aimed at eradication of the "Ramshorn" snail, part of the life-cycle of the "yellow grub" (Clinostomum marginatum).

They used/tested chemical as well as biological methods to get rid of the snails. The chemical methods are too risky (another alternative was to completely drain the pond, get rid of ALL your plants, and "hold" your fish population for about 3 days.....). Plus, SNAILS HAPPEN! So any control of this type is only temporary, until more snails move in!

I brought Trapdoor snails into the pond, but the Ramshorns got there on their own, probably via plants, birds, etc., so....... SNAILS HAPPEN!

Any thoughts? Or does anyone know of another fish that would work? Something that wouldn't be a potential hazard to the aquatic environment (there's a carp that's excellent, but not usable as an introduced fish).

 

[Mmathis]

Correction on the size: 5" - 12"

 

[fishin4cars]

DO NOT ADD! Seriously small sunfish like what your describing are VERY territorial. A single fish would destroy all the fins on your goldies very fast. They do calm down some when they are in groups but then you have to worry about spawning which they are like cichlids when they spawn, extremely territorial and will fight off any fish that comes near the nest.
A better snail controller would be a KOI, some loaches will eat snails but most are tropical and won't survive winter. There are copper based snail control products that work but you have to be careful when they die off so as not to raise ammonia to high during the die-off process. If you decide to try a Koi do not use copper based products as it can cause health issues including death to koi, however it doesn't seem to harm goldfish for some reason.

 

[Phil]

I have six adult pumpkinseeds, a relative of the redear, in my 1800 gallon pond. They are all between 6" and " and share the water with 8 or 10 black nosed dace, a 3" minnow, but I have no koi or goldfish. Larkin is correct, the sunfishes are very territorial, and even moreso when spawning. While they definitely have a hierarchy, and chase each other around a little bit, none of them seem to be injured by it and they have no missing scales or torn fins. I suspect they might beat up on a slow moving goldfish, however. They don't seem interested in the dace, and judjing by the number of last year's spawn that survived to this year, apparently not much interest in fry either. I only feed them three times a week (being wild they won't eat pellet food so they get meal worms and finely chopped raw shrimp) so I had hoped they would have done a better job controlling the fry, but now I have to find a way to cull them out. As for snails, I have never purposely introduced any but of course they came in on some plants. They seem to go in a boom and bust cycle, but I think the pumpkinseeds must eat most of them because I have never had any sort of snail problem.

 

[Mmathis]

OK, and that's exactly what I wanted to hear! So no sunfish!

So how much damage can 1 koi do as far as destroying plants, and as far as being a good snail eater? Like, if I were to add just one koi to the pond?

 

[gardengimp]

don't believe me, but I think I've read that male koi and/or longfin's are less destructive. Maybe you can find somebody wanting to rehome a male longfin?

 

[Mmathis]

don't believe me, but I think I've read that male koi and/or longfin's are less destructive. Maybe you can find somebody wanting to rehome a male longfin?

By long fin, do you mean butterfly?

 

[BlueOrca]

My mother's 15 year old pond has one large Koi (1 large albino catfish, and about 60ish goldfish/comets) it is way over populated, but the plants grow prolifically. My parents IMO overfeed as well, so that might be why the 20 + inch koi doesn't eat or root in the plants.....and they have no snails whatsoever. I have bought them trapdoor/apple cart snails years ago, but they don't seem to prosper and I have never seen the smaller snails you are speaking of in their pond.

 

[gardengimp]

By long fin, do you mean butterfly?

Yuppers

 

[crsublette]

If you have butterfly koi or fancy fantail goldfish or some other long fin fish, then I would keep an eye on the sunfish to see how it acts around them.

I have not yet found a predatory population control fish that is not aggressive. I think being aggressive is part of it. You can try trout, but, once the trout gets big, then be very careful since, when trout get quite big, they can act like a carp in eating goldfish up to around 6 inches long and possibly bigger.

It is all about the size of the mouth on the fish. I have been recommended to get a Warmouth Sunfish, much like a bream, since all of the other sunfish have just too small of a mouth to catch fish fry.

Sunfish aggressiveness is entirely dependent on the species. The bluegill and green and hybrid sun fish are extremely aggressive. There are also other very aggressive varieties. These particular varieties are also more of a schooling specy of sunfish compared to other sunfish. Pumpkinseed and Longear are much more solitary, a bit less aggressive than the previously mentioned sunfish, but they will have their moments of aggression. Warmouth is a good one that is more like a bream, but I am told the aggressiveness is the same as pumpkinseed and longear, except warmouth has a bigger mouth.

If you get a sunfish for small fish fry control, then only get one or a couple of the same gender.

If you get one, then you need to add an object like a cave in the pond so they can claim it as their territory. The less aggressive species only are known to momentarily chase other fish when they get close to they objects that they claim their territory.

Sunfish is actually a very popular aquarium fish with other quite fancy tropical fish as long as the companion fish are too big to be eaten. From the testimonials I have read, folk have had mixed experiences with sunfish when mixed with other tropical fish.

A good active forum to help out with your sunfish questions is NANFA, Zimmerman's Captive Raised Native Fish and his online store is at Zimmerman's Fish. His stock fluctuates throughout the year so his selection changes all the time.

I have been considering adding one for a long time, but I have just not done it yet.

 

[crsublette]

Yep, for snails, you can try weather loaches (Misgurnus anguillicaudatus). Here is a thread, video of my kois and loach, with a fella that has them with his koi and a good discussion involving loaches. I talked extensively in private messages with the owner. He got his at a big pet store, but I never could find any at mine. I will have to special order mine. He actually has 3 of them and never had them breed. From my research, I have learned they are very tough to breed in our type of outdoor ponds. Even though literature says they need something to dig into, this is not absolutely necessarily. From my conversation with the guy, he says he only has a few hallow bricks lined up to create a tunnel for them to hide in and he says you will likely never seen them when the water gets colder.

I have read the weather loaches (Misgurnus anguillicaudatus) will survive cold water conditions the same as goldfish. Other species of Loach are much more tropical and can not tolerate cold temperatures. There are species of loach so hardy that they are considered to be an invasive species in areas of Europe and Asia.

You do not want the typical loach that you see at the big pet store. You specifically want the Misgurnus anguillicaudatus, that is weather loach and sometimes called a dojo loach.

Also, check out this thread on the Loaches forum, Loach species for fish egg control in pond.

I have been considering adding one for a long time as well, but I have just not done it yet.

 

[crsublette]

Be sure to purchase Sunfish when they are quite small. It is easier for aggressive fish to adapt in a pond when they are very young and small.


:yikesu: To those squeamish goldfish lovers, do not read this post!!! :yikesu: :yikesu:


Here is a Hybrid Warmouth in action. Warmouth is actually a blend with a largemouth bass and a green sunfish. The hybrid species are definitely much more aggressive so be careful. :angry:

Make sure your goldfish are at least bigger than 5~6". Once the goldfish get to a bigger size, then the Warmouth will not be so aggressive toward them.

For Loaches, I would especially make sure they are around 7" long. Grow them out in your quarantine tank first before moving them to the pond.

Looks like all of these feeder golfish are around 1~2" long.

Notice that the Green Sunfish also gets a couple of them.

Now, you realize why comets are often referred to as feeder goldfish. :bye2:


[video]

 

[Mmathis]

Well, I think I've ruled out sunfish. A single koi may be a consideration....

 

[Dave 54]

Sadly I have to agree with Larkin however we used to add snails in the large indoor koi setup we had and couldnt understand why they all kept dying.Until one day we saw a koi pick a snail off the side of the glass take it in then spit an empty shell back out as to weather it'd work in a pond I no not , just a thought.rgrdsDave