Substrate

[John Sankus]

So, pond is all dug - shelves and stuff covered in thick wet newspaper, carpet used as underlay.
I just need to put in the liner and fill her up...
So, to plant or not to plant...
I do not wish to put soil or any other nutrient-rich substance into the pond. I read somewhere that a bit of carpet base-side up would provide a substrate for plants to grow on - would this work?
Anyone tried this?

 

[Fishylove]

Hmm. Never heard of that before. You can use a shallow container ( or any type of container really ) and fill it with pea gravel.
But if I remember correctly, you were not going to have fish in your pond? Really plants and fish sort of go together. Fish create waste and blah, blah, blah, your plants use the waste ( bit more complicated, but to prevent finger fatigue ) Now I use; and most on this forum do as well, clay cat litter in the bottom of the container; to help give the plant some neutrients, put in some fertilizer and then cover the clay with pea gravel.
AND OF COURSE PUT THE PLANT IN :wacko: lol.

 

[Waterbug]

I've never done this either or read of anyone doing it. I just put carpet on top of a liner but that's for a pond filled to the top with soil, so the carpet was to protect the liner. The carpet did float as I was filling with water, so I had to start adding soil to weigh it down. Be interesting to read what you found if you run into it again.

I think the carpet would be a great substrate for underwater plants like Anacharis, Hornwart, etc. I never had any luck growing any underwater plants because algae covered them. The thing that I would be worried about is the carpet falling apart over time and having little bits of stuff. But I guess ponds will always have little bits of stuff, so maybe not that big a deal. I have used carpet in the garden on paths and it can end up messy if you not removed before it breaks down too much. Carpets are made different ways and life span seems to vary. You might want to test a small piece in water for a few week just to make sure it didn't fall apart right away.

 

[John Sankus]

Thanks guys. With regard to fish in the pond - if I could actually FIND a pond anywhere near here I would go and do a bit of dipping and 'relocate' a few organisms, but I just don't think there is one. This area is predominantly Cretaceous sandstone sitting on top of Jurassic limestone - water just falls straight through to the water table so naturally-occurring ponds are pretty rare in this area.
There are fish in the river that runs behind the house, but I don't think a trout would be very happy in my little pond...
If I could get a couple of minnows or stickleback or that sort of thing I wouldn't mind too much, but as I said, it is predominantly for whatever finds its way in naturally.
Incidentally, I have a karcher power washer - you hook one end up to a hosepipe, switch it on, and you have a water gun to wash the car, or wash algae off paving stones or whatever - I turned the tap off last week to see what would happen... the hosepipe sucked in like it was a vaccuum... so yesterday I threw the intake end of the hosepipe in the river and voila! - river water coming out of my pressure washer! At least now I know how I am going to fill it - although I will have to wait until the sediment settles - if we get a bit of rain as we have had over the last couple of days, the river turns brown...

 

[Waterbug]

Really plants and fish sort of go together. Fish create waste and blah, blah, blah, your plants use the waste

Just a little pond trivia...
While certainly true fish produce waste plants can use the plants are just as happy to use waste from other sources too. A bare pond will normally start with green water algae, some capable of nitrogen fixation, lots of tiny bugs, newts and frogs maybe, some leaves and dust blow in, then string algae which will provide a lot of dead organic matter and then sometime higher plants should start when seeds blow in, or hitch a ride on a duck. The process can take years of course for the higher plants as it takes a long time for enough leaves and dead algae to decompose into a thick enough layer of soil.

In most water gardens with fish and plants it's really the fish food added that's ultimately responsible for the plant nutrients. While the fish are the middle men in most backyard ponds, bacteria is more than happy to step into that role. So adding fish food even without fish will produce about the same amount of nutrients for the plants. Just another kind of fertilizer.

 

[capewind]

This may sound like a silly question... I "get" that the fish food would act as a fert for the plants, but wouldnt it be cheaper to just use plant food???

 

[j.w]

Or maybe just throw in a bit of road kill now and then :razz:

 

[Waterbug]

This may sound like a silly question... I "get" that the fish food would act as a fert for the plants, but wouldnt it be cheaper to just use plant food???

That it would, and better for the plants I should think.

Road kill, fish food....probably not a big difference there for some types.

 

[Fishylove]

Road kill would be cheaper for sure lol

 

[Craig58]

I also would be concerned with using carpet in the water. Carpets are usually made with lots of glues and resins. As the carpet breaks down, these glues and adheshives can break down and various chemicals can be released. Many carpets are treated with stain and grease proofing products. These can contain chemicals like PFOA (perfluorooctanoate), a suspected carcinogen. Newer carpets can emite VOC's, (Volatile Organic Compounds) like formaldehyde. I doubt you'll use a newer carpet in the pond but who knows?

So I wouldn't put it in ponds directly in the water. Under a few feet of soil like Waterbug indicated probably wouldn't be an issue.

What is your reasoning for not putting soil in the pond? i wouldn't if I was planning on filtering or puttting in fish. But if you are doing a plants only pond, i don't see a problem. I'd probably plant everything in pots as described above already.

Also, keep in mind that with no fish, you might have a bug problem. Fish eat mosquito larvae as well as other bugs. So even if fish aren't your primary desire, if your pond is big enough, you might want to consider a handful of rosy reds, mosquito fish or goldfish for bug control. But having a handful of fish usually leds to a lot of fish unless you can be ruthless at culling them out. Adding a sunfish or catfish for population control might help in regard to that. Possibly your local Fish and Wildlife officer might be able to make some suggestions for a local native fish that can perform this duty.

Craig

 

[John Sankus]

Soil =nutrients
nutrients = algal bloom which I really don't want tbh.
I don't really think we get rosy reds or mosquito fish in England - we do get sunfish but they grow a bit big for a 16ft pond I think

 

[j.w]

Just get a few minnow to take care of the skeeter problem :razz:

 

[John Sankus]

Well not gonna use carpet, following the advice above
Have got some play sand to throw in, so that will at least be something for the odd plant to take hold on

 

[Craig58]

One sunfish in a 16 ft pond shouldn't be a problem. A few sunnies and catfish should be fine. but again, I'd ask a fish and wildlife officer for your area. I'm positive there is someone assigned to your area.

Soil does not = nutirents that lead to alage bloom.

Nutrients are in soil, soil is not nutrients.

It's why folks use kitty litter which is clay, (usually it is, check the ingredients).

Pure clay doesn't normally have nutrients in it for algae growth. Nitrates and phosphates in the water are the primary cause of algae blooms.
ANY waste in the pond: fish waste, plant waste, excess food, fallen leaves, dead bugs, etc.. is mostly converted to Ammonia first, then by bacteria to nitrite and then by bacteria to nitrate. The Nitrates are what are used by the algae. In natural systems, over application of Urea (lots of ammonia), nitrogen and phosphorous to farmland accounts for a lot of the algae blooms seen in local ponds and creeks. It's also one of the reasons phosphates have been removed from most soaps and laundry detergents.

The more comon clays are

Illite - (K,H3O)(Al,Mg,Fe)2(Si,Al)4O10[(OH)2,(H2O)]

Montmorillonite - (Na,Ca)0.33(Al,Mg)2(Si4O10)(OH)2·nH2O

Kaolinite - Al[sub]2[/sub]Si[sub]2[/sub]O[sub]5[/sub](OH)[sub]4[/sub]

These clays do not typically get converted to nitrates. So you shouldn't worry about adding these to your pond. Natural soil from the garden MAY contain added fertilizers that will promote plant and algae growth.

Please remember that if you want nice plants in your pond, you WANT some nitrates in the pond. You NEED nitrates in your pond.

Pond fertilizing tabs (a nitrogen and phosphate mix), are usually inserted into the soil under the pea gravel so that as they dissolve, they are taken up by the plant in the pot and not released to the general pond water. Over fertilizing pond plants can also lead to green waters.

Often times, unless you use a UV, some green water is going to be normal in the first few weeks of a new season until the higher forms of algae and the bigger pond plants get to a size to absorb a critical amount of the floating nitrates so as to starve out some of the single-celled algaes that cause green water.

If you really want no green water, along with no fish, you might want to just use a 20 or 40W Uv on your pond and recirculate the water through it. No filter needed. Of course with no filter, that algae dies, remains in the pond, becomes ammonia, and then nitrite and then nitrate! It's just a vicious circle!

I hope this helps!

Craig

 

[John Sankus]

The only thing going in the pond will be children's play sand, because it is chemically inert. As I mentioned previously, this area has no clay, and the pond will reflect the local geology. Native wetland flora here thrives on very low nutrient levels and only local plants will be going in it.
I haven't actually decided yet whether to plant it or not - I'll probably see by spring whether any plants have decided to take up residence without my help.
The bog garden part will be planted up though, and filled with peat and moss and maybe even manure to give it something to start with, but on the whole I think I will wait and see what decides to use the pond