skimmer vs "pondless basin/cavity"

[seadevil]

Hi,

We planning a small water feature and I'm not sure if we want a year-round pond or just a small waterfall/stream. I've read a couple of books on pond design and am considering what seems to be an unusual mix.

Here are the details:
* water capacity ~ 700 gallons (maybe less if we go more towards a stream)
* dimensions 10 feet at the widest by 16 feet long
* I want to blend it into a dry creek bed made from 3-4" river rock
* fish ?? maybe just goldfish for the summer?
* deepest ~2 feet, depending on the fish decision (I'd like to leave my options open)
* flow rate slightly less than 3000 gph (derated for 4-foot head)
* The falls portion will be ~3 feet in drop over 3 stages and the last stage will be 3 feet wide.
* The whole thing is on one side of a flagstone patio abutting a stone wall where the falls will start.

I think the pondless approach (aquascape snorkel/vault/centipede or little giant pump vault) might be easier to blend into the dry creek bed than having a skimmer. I don't anticipate tree leaves being a problem. One of the local pond shops has the pondless system with a few shallow pools in the stream. I just envision making 1 pool and having it be a little deeper. The depth would taper shallower and wider as the wet portion approached the dry creek bed. (I hope to hide the wet/dry boundary)

Since this seems uncommon there must be a reason? What are the consequences of using this approach rather than a skimmer? (fish plants, algae, ease-of-cleaning) Any and all advice is appreciated.

thanks,
randy

 

[koiguy1969]

If you have small children is the only reason to build a pondless waterfall setup. They wat you to dig a pond build a waterfall then fill the pond with rocks... Even if the holes 3' round why not go a couple more feet and make it a pond? Even 3 or 4 foot round you can throw a few goldfish in and make your water feature a bit more interesting and estetically pleasing..

 

[seadevil]

Thanks for the reply.

So if I do have the pond, could I still use the buried return system (rather than a skimmer?)

 

[nigil]

You could just put the pump in the pond itself if do you do no want to go the skimmer route. Just bury your pipe to the pond edge and hook up the pump from the pond.

 

[leeannecastro]

Seadevil, if you have fish in it you must have one area at least 3 1/2 feet deep for the fish to go in in the winter. I live north of Denver and my fish would not have survived if my pond wasn't 4 feet deep at one end. You would also need to have a hole in the ice through the whole winter.
Would this pond have a liner or be natural?

 

[DrDave]

Seadevil, if you have fish in it you must have one area at least 3 1/2 feet deep for the fish to go in in the winter. I live north of Denver and my fish would not have survived if my pond wasn't 4 feet deep at one end. You would also need to have a hole in the ice through the whole winter.
Would this pond have a liner or be natural?

Leeanne
Pardon my ignorance since we don't experience the freeze here. For the benefit of the forum members in deep freeze zones and since you are experienced in this area, please inform us. With a 4' deep pond in your area, does it freeze down 3.5'? If it does, I am trying to picture the hole. Is the ice around the hole also several feet thick?

Will a soccar ball alone keep the ice open?

 

[seadevil]

...
Would this pond have a liner or be natural?

It will have a liner.

The local pond store claims 2.5 feet is enough when you use a (I forget the name) pump that sits on the bottom and jets to the surface. They claim the moving water will not freeze.

I don't intend to leave any fish in the pond over the winter.

I am still curious why more ponds don't use the sump return rather than the skimmer? I've heard a few ideas but no pro/con or opinions from anyone who has one or the other. I assume there are advantages to each. I am leaning toward the sunken return (what ever it is called) but I'd prefer to learn from others mistakes...

We have young children in the neighborhood so I am leaning toward a 2.5 foot deep area which I will fill with large rock blocks that can be removed later if we decide to add fish. I'm trying to start simple but leave my options open.

thanks again,
randy

 

[koiguy1969]

i think most folks hgere use a submersable pump plumbed to a filter then back to pond via falls or piped direct. some use skimmers but most use a basic system as described.

 

[leeannecastro]

I kept my fish in my lower pond last winter wich is 4' deep in one corner. It is about 12' x 10'. I use a bubbler hose attached to a rock in the middle of my pond to keep a hole in the ice. The bubbler creates a 12" circle most of the time. It can get smaller or larger depending on the temperature. The rest of the pond will freeze as normal. Last year during a particularly cold snap, my ice was a little over 18" thick in most places. My dogs and brother-in-law were even walking on it! I have heard of ice freezing up to 2.5' here and I was informed that the fish would need about 1 foot of water to swim in to be comfortable and they need to have a bit of water that is warmer than 32 degrees.
I have heard of people using deicers as well but I found that a $10 aquarium bubbler and long hose works just fine. I have never heard of someone using a soccer ball to keep a hole open.