Salt?

[Sharon Goode]

My friends with Koi ponds do not seem to worry about salt levels in their ponds. Some do not add salt at all and seem to think I am crazy? Am I crazy? Most Koi sites recommend using salt (.3) in their ponds to help fish maintain outer skin health and prevent some types of problems. Please let me know what you think. I have well water and my pond tester says my readings are within acceptable ranges.

 

[dieselplower]

I have no idea but I am interested to hear what people say. I have never added salt to my fish tanks or pond.

 

[slakker]

I've heard mixed reviews... but generally no for any planted ponds as even a little too high salinity will kill all the plants. I like my various plant so stay away from it.

 

[Waterbug]

It's purely a personal choice. There are reasons to use salt and there are reasons to not use salt. I think as a person gains experience and knowledge their preference changes. A person can only make decisions based on their level of understanding.

Most Koi sites recommend using salt (.3) in their ponds to help fish maintain outer skin health and prevent some types of problems.

What sites? That is not my impression. Different sites have different levels of knowledge.

There are very few sites with info from people with extensive experience and knowledge.

There are many, many sites with "experts" who just read myths in newbie forums and other bad sites and just repeat what they read. There's way more people like this in the world. Far too lazy to ever do any thinking or research for themselves. If you strictly go by the most popular, most often posted, info on the net...that's not going to work out so good.

In my experience of reading and talking to Koi keepers I can't remember a single case of someone I would call experienced and knowledgeable who thought maintaining a salt level was a good thing. I assume there are experienced and knowledgeable keepers who do believe some 24/7 salt level is good, but I haven't come across them yet that I can remember. Would love any links.

I personally see more problems with keeping 24/7 salt levels than benefits. Some practical like what do you do with water from water changes. Dump it on the lawn or garden? Kind of a lot of salt over time. Dump it down a storm drain and break Federal law? Dump it down your sewage system and break city law?

24/7 salt certainly doesn't prevent infection and parasites, may reduce occurrences. So when the fish do get a problem you can't treat with salt because you already have. You've grown salt resistance bacteria or parasites.

On the other hand the benefits I've seen promoted by 24/7 salt seemed pretty weak. Basically some generalities and what I consider to be flaws in logic. Base inexperience.

That's my thinking. But I wouldn't call someone else "crazy" for using salt. I've known people who use antibacterial soaps for everything, antibacterial body wash, I don't consider them "crazy". Maybe they're OCD or just got some poor info, but not "crazy". Over time they seem to just kind of quietly stop in their own time as they learn more. That's normal imo.

 

[Sharon Goode]

Waterbug (I love the name)
Thanks for your reply! In answer to your question about my source, My main source is a book by Erik L. Johnson, D.V.M. titled Koi Health and Disease Beginner to advanced Life-Saving Technology. This book offers suggestions on a multitude of fish health problems. His first advice is great water! Seems like you suggested that one too. He goes on in this book to list many illnesses and diseases that Koi owners face. If you can find a copy it is worth the read and he has many observations of what seems to work for him. He recommends trying Salt first before you try other treatments for Koi as salt is cheap and works well on alot of different illnesses. Dr. Johnson has several book in print now on Amazon and Ebay. I am too new at this hobby to take his word as gospel, but the local fish breeders in my area seem to find his advice helpful. Let me know what you think. My installer came over and treated my pond with potassium permanganate (again I dont know enough to second guess her). It is messy and requires water changes and I hated my brown water. I still have one fish with an ulcer, so I figured I would give the salt a try. Thanks again for your reply

 

[slakker]

Many people I know locally also refer to Dr. Johnson's work, and for me, I've it very informative and useful. I especially like his recommendation on trickle-flow auto-top up that also doubles as slow water change.

 

[Dave 54]

My friends with Koi ponds do not seem to worry about salt levels in their ponds. Some do not add salt at all and seem to think I am crazy? Am I crazy? Most Koi sites recommend using salt (.3) in their ponds to help fish maintain outer skin health and prevent some types of problems. Please let me know what you think. I have well water and my pond tester says my readings are within acceptable ranges.

Weve been koi keepers for 27 years now and subscribe to if koi were marine fish then yes we would add salt but seeing as they are not then we dont add salt

rgrds

Dave

 

[Waterbug]

In answer to your question about my source, My main source is a book by Erik L. Johnson, D.V.M. titled Koi Health and Disease Beginner to advanced Life-Saving Technology.

Thanks. I often send people with fish problems to Dr Johnson. I've read his advice for many years in different forums he used to post in and of course his web sites and videos.

His book was truly great stuff in 1997 when it came out. But keep in mind Dr Johnson had only been interested in Koi for a couple of years before he wrote the book. In the past 16 years we've learned more, as did Dr Johnson. I hate to put words in his mouth without providing links but Koivet forum is gone, but as I remember his posts changed some aspects of salt use after the book.

In the past few years he has promoted constant water replacement which I think is a great idea. That would make maintaining a high salt level difficult and he doesn't mention salt. So I think his views have changed.

Back in those days it was indeed commonly thought that salt killed most parasites, meaning a pond could be kept free of those parasites if high salt level was maintained. And it was also believed that higher salt levels thru the winter would stop parasites from getting hold. So people, especially breeders, did maintain high salt levels. But after awhile people started seeing salt-resistant parasites. It became more and more clear that maintaining salt levels did not have the effect originally theorized. Today I'd say many experienced Koi keepers consider maintaining elevated salt levels in the winter has harmful because of its effect on water temperature and thermal stratification. People were killing (some, not wide spread) fish by using salt in order to maybe reduce parasite risk which was treatable other ways and parasites are not an immediate life risk while very cold water is.

That's the great thing about sites and forums with experienced and knowledgeable people. They are passionate and will argue their positions but over time data does matter. People gain experience and change views (slowly). That how they become knowledgeable. Difference between knowledgeable and blowhard.

Contrast that with many, many sites and forums where the only thing that matters is appearing right. Constant flame wars and personal attacks just to defend some old idea they never even understood in the first place. There are pond forums today full of stuff that was disproved years and years ago. Those people could care less if something is true or not. Only that whatever they say must be true forever. There could be a million studies and reams of data that disprove their "facts" and they could careless.

A person has to be careful where they get their info unfortunately. And it's getting worst everyday.

 

[Sharon Goode]

Thanks Waterbug and you are absolutely right times and remedies do change! I will continue to research and try to expand my knowledge of Koi. Would you try the salt treatment for a few days to see if it clears up the ulcer on this fish? Catching and isolating him is just about impossible. My pond plants, lights and pumps would have to be removed and then the fray would probably cause stress and damage to the rest of my fish. There is probably another month of decent weather here which would give me time to do water changes and remove the salt levels. This is a 30.00 dollar fish but I have spent many hours watching him grow and would like to save him if I can.

 

[shakaho]

He goes on in this book to list many illnesses and diseases that Koi owners face. If you can find a copy it is worth the read and he has many observations of what seems to work for him. He recommends trying Salt first before you try other treatments for Koi as salt is cheap and works well on alot of different illnesses.

It sounds as though he is recommending salt as a medication. That is not the same as keeping salt in your pond. If you salt your pond routinely, you lose the potential of using salt as a medication. If you want to treat a single sick fish with any medication, including salt, you should first remove the fish to a hospital tank.

I just now read that you are having trouble catching the fish. You might as well take the plants out to catch the fish since a medicinal level of salt will kill most of them. The easiest way to catch a pond fish is to pump water out of the pond. Fish are much easier to catch in shallow water.

 

[JohnHuff]

Why so pessimistic? This is one of the finest forums of any kind, and with thoughtful and informative posts, you are helping push back the wall of ignorance one post at a time. :cheerful:

And it's getting worst everyday.

 

[Waterbug]

Why so pessimistic? This is one of the finest forums of any kind, and with thoughtful and informative posts, you are helping push back the wall of ignorance one post at a time. :cheerful:

The internet as a whole, cell phones, social media, Twitter, etc. There has been a huge increase in the number of people posting their "facts". Even 10 years ago you could search for some info and have a chance of running into some good info. More and more you run into pretty good looking sites that have just copied bits and pieces of info from other sites but they butcher the message because they don't actually understand anything about what they're posting.

So everyday it gets harder for people to figure out what's crap info and what's worth considering. Forums like Koivet even shutdown completely because of the avalanche of poor info being generated by a huge number of inexperienced people. You have 95% of content being poor and 90% of readers wanting, even demanding, the light fluffy 140 word or less answers. I think we might be heading to having to pay for good info, like it used to be having to buy books.

Another problem that is getting worse everyday is out of date content. Most content contains no date at all and often no way to check the author to see if there's even a chance they're worth reading.

You might see that as pessimistic because you like to read negative aspects into posts. I see it as an issue that will be solved in the future and there are solutions currently being tried like subscription based content, ebooks, etc.

 

[Waterbug]

Would you try the salt treatment for a few days to see if it clears up the ulcer on this fish? Catching and isolating him is just about impossible. My pond plants, lights and pumps would have to be removed and then the fray would probably cause stress and damage to the rest of my fish. There is probably another month of decent weather here which would give me time to do water changes and remove the salt levels. This is a 30.00 dollar fish but I have spent many hours watching him grow and would like to save him if I can.

I would do the same as you. I'd look at the problem and do my best within my personal limits to try and improve the conditions. I don't have enough info of your specific situation to feel like I can even suggest a specific course. Best I can do is discuss options you could consider in addition to other sources. This stuff is difficult even when I'm on site...in text messages and pictures...just not reasonable imo. At least I don't feel comfortable.

Understanding I don't remember any previous posts...in general when I hear ulcer my first concern is how the fish got an ulcer. That problem has to be addressed first or at the same time. Normally this means water quality. Trying to cure an ulcer by using salt in the pond that allowed an ulcer to form does not seem like a good idea to me. An ulcer is really more of a symptom. However, the ulcer could be just from a cut that got infected. If water tests look good and there's just a single ulcer, especially if it looks like a long gash rather than a round sore, I'd probably assume injury and just treat the infection. With multiple ulcers, and vary in size like they started at different times, I start to suspect a bigger problem.

If a fish had an ulcer and was valuable to me, either monetarily or emotionally, I would setup a separate tank, a hospital tank, and treat that fish as needed. Gets the fish out of whatever is causing the problem and I can better inspect the fish to see if there's any obvious problem like parasites, or more smaller sores that I had noticed before. I can increase the water temp into a optimal range that increases the fish's own immune system, which that alone I consider the best possible treatment. I can better watch the fish to see if the treatment is causing a problem and reserve the treatment fast. It just gives me some control.

Treating a whole pond you roll the dice and hope for the best. Perfectly reasonable choice if that matches your specific situation and goals.

If the cause of all this was due to parasites I would separately treat the entire pond with some product like Formalin. Salt is effective, but maybe not as effective. Plus it's a huge pain in the rear. I don't like complex if simple is available.

Fish can be caught and handled with little stress. I saw a great Youtube that demonstrated the method in a pond with lots of plants and hiding places, but of course I have no way of ever finding it again.

It's actually pretty easy if you have the right kind of net and are patient. You can remove whatever plants you can from the pond, but that's not really needed. Use a shallow net made specifically to catch koi like this one. Most people I think don't think this would work because the net is so shallow the fish would jump right out...but that's kind of the point. The idea isn't to catch or trap the fish. Very difficult to chase Koi around any pond or tank and actually "catch" them. The idea is to gently embrace the fish. Slowly move the net in the water and from behind and below slowly coax the fish to the surface with the net beneath the fish and then coax them into a plastic tub.

Here's a good example, although I wish I had the one with lots of plants.

As you see there's no chasing of fish. Even in a pond with no hiding places you can't really "catch" a koi. They have to allow themselves to be caught. Which they don't normally mind too much, they've been through it many times before.

Having said all that, you still have to work within your own personal parameters. I'm not saying you "should" do this or that.

 

[JohnHuff]

My dear WB, that is patently untrue. Ironically for you, even my post that you referred to was a positive one. The internet is no different from the real world where you have to decide for yourself what is right and what isn't. As for myself, I don't read any positive or negative aspect into it, it's merely information that needs to be filtered and digested.

You might see that as pessimistic because you like to read negative aspects into posts. I see it as an issue that will be solved in the future and there are solutions currently being tried like subscription based content, ebooks, etc.

 

[Waterbug]

Oh yes, you are very fair and balanced. Not judgemental at all. I stand corrected. Thanks for setting the record straight.