QT'ing baby fish

[gardengimp]

I brought home some baby fish last week to get ready for the pond expansion. I went to my local Petsmart early afternoon on fish shipment day. Yes, I'm that person who hand picked a half dozen .13 feeder goldfish. I should tip! I also splurged on one $3 sarassa; but ssshhh don't tell hubby. I brought them home to a tub I had prepared and running for 48 hours. It is a lavender tub. Sitting on my front porch, under cover. Running an airstone. Daily water changes with water from the new pond. A thick strand of cabomba from a barrel garden, and a round floating net.

So, that's the background. Now for the questions,

Looking at the very small fishies from the top down, how do you tell if they are healthy? How do you tell if they are developing ich or some fungus? The babies are getting brave enough to venture ontop the net to feast upon the largess of cabomba. A few days ago, I spotted what might have been small white specs on the tail fins of my splurge fish. Reading up on Ich, it appears to be common believe that all retail fish will be carrying ich. If pond babies are being brought into a quarantine tub (not a glass tank), and you can't see the sides of them very well (if at all) how do you handle an ich outbreak? Do you just automatically do a salt treatment soon after you bring new fish home?

So I did a salt treatment. I am now that person who puts on my reading glasses and grabs the most powerful spot light and goes and wakes my poor fish (at night) up to check their tail fins. My dogs will tell you I have an obsession with tail feathers that must have transmorged to tail fins. In the case of the dogs, it is because I don't want them bringing any drippies inside on their tail feathers. Dogs are much easier than fish, dogs have learned stand-stay. Baby fish lacking the training of hover-stay doesn't stay still near the top of the water well enough for me to see any spots on tail fins. So I do need to net up this poor fish and put it into a clear glass to check it's fins? Or repeat the salt treatment? Or just wait out two to four weeks? IF indeed all retail fish are carrying around ich spores, I really want the spores eliminated before the baby fish move up in the world to join our established pond fish.

Another question? How much aeration / water movement does a 25 gallon tub with 7 baby fish need for optimal baby fish health? I had assumed that wild carp being found in eutrophic deltas & lakes would not need a lot of water current. I have a spare 100 GPH pump that I assumed would be too much current for babies in a 25 gallon tub that does have an airstone. Right or wrong?

As a last aside, I can't believe I had to buy baby fish. This time last year, hubby and I were all aghast at finding a dozen baby fish in our small pond of 3 young adult fish. We had visions of population explosions. Steps must be taken. So this spring, I added a betta and 4 rosy reds. This fall, nadda; zero; zilch - baby fish. Of course, I also added a bog. So I suppose the bog could also be a baby fish eater along with the betta and the rosy reds. At any rate, I do hope this is the last baby fish buying I have to do. The checking on babies, the special food, oh my.

I peeked at a tank of shubunkins at the store. Showed hubs some pictures yesterday. Asked him if we could get one. (we are starting month 5 of no income). He said, poor fish can't be all alone. Let me look under the couch cushions and in my sock drawer. Maybe we can swing some friends for the calico finny. Huzzah!

 

[crsublette]

ALL fish bring their own parasites and their own fungus and their own bad bacteria.

Unfortunately, you're at the "wait and watch" time. Other than this, I have heard of ponders do a "scrape and scope" approach to see if they have any parasites on them. The fungus and ulcers are blatantly obvious when they occur.

Emergency Section Koi Health. There's a section titled, "part nine", that talks about quarantine and gives a recommendation. Be sure you follow instructions precisely to the letter.

I never did any of this with my fish mostly since I was anxious and I already had my fish. I just put them into a stocktank, that I did a "fishless cycle" to jumpstart the bacteria colonies, and did the "wait and watch" approach for 3 weeks and tossed the dead.

Prepare your self. With the PetsMart fish, only 1 out of 3 of my comets survived or ya might get lucky and none die.

Keep in mind the cheap comet goldfish you bought are actually sold to be food for bigger fish. The .13 cent comets aren't meant to survive long so crowded in those tanks at PetsMart.

For next round of fish, I'm gonna perform the shotgun recommendation in the hyperlink and then hope for the best.

The deltas & lakes are huge volumes of water where these pollutants become very dilluted so they never bother the fish unless someone is actively dumping waste into it. Still, there are special macroalgaes that thrive in very eutrophic waters, acting as a biofiltration, protecting the fish.

While in your tank, I would test for the basics, that is pH, ammonia (NH3), nitrite, and KH and do 10% daily water changes.

Good luck!!

 

[gardengimp]

I thought it was time to come back along with an update on the nursery.

So, the tub started off with 6 .13 feeder goldfish and one crazy lady splurge sarassa. A chance encounter of the sarassa on top of a floating plant ring a few days after coming home revealed a few white freckles on the tail. I started with a .3% salt solution for treatment. Being in a tub, in winter time, on my front porch -- heat wasn't a real option. After reading the link Charles posted, I upped the salt solution to .6%. Oh, and I decided if I was treating fish, I would add the shubunkins to the tub.

All the fish are continuing to do fine. Another chance encounter of sarassa on top the floating plant ring allowed an up close and personal inspection, and the fish is freckle free. The .13 feeder fish have actually been the most consistently energetic of the crew. Growing good, and eating good. I switched them over to some flake food that has good fishy sounding stuff in the first half dozen ingredients. Plus, I add a scoop of string algae to their tub each day. Haven't been able to keep any other floating plants in with them with the salt, but the string algae isn't phased. The baby fish like the string algae. They nest in it, and nibble at it.

I confirmed that at least Petsmart gets their fish direct from the growers. Now, to my way of thinking ... the growers are going to be taking somewhat decent care of their fish. They will want them healthy enough to ship. The risk comes from any extended time in the tanks at Petsmart. That's why I go on fish receiving day. My skewed logic is that by getting them on the day that they are received, I have improved odds of getting healthy babies. Now I have to keep them healthy at home and before they go in my pond.

That article Charles posted is very interesting. Most of it is not applicable to my simple garden pond, but I do want to give the fish a good chance. Some of the key points for me include:
- separate the new fish from the water they came with so that you don't put contaminated water in your QT
- assume that all retail fish come with risk of ich and treat at .6%, anything less prophylacticly is a waste
- treat for 10 days
- pond salt has a high markup, non-iodine sea salt should work just as well
- isolate any gear that you use in QT and don't allow it in your pond

I started my tub off with fresh from the tap water. I treated it, and let it run with the airstone for several days before adding the fish. I've done daily water changes, using water from the new side of the pond. After the holiday break, I will start tempering in water from the existing side of the pond with the water changes. This is to get the babies used to the water they will ultimately be living in. Today was the last salt day, so the tub water will start gradually loosing its salinity. I didn't buy a meter, I carefully measured out my water changing bucket and attempted to be as true as possible. It's just not practical to buy a meter when I might bring in new fish once or twice a year at most. I tested the water a bit. More so in the beginning. I alternated 10% change one day and 20% change the next day. It was easier for me to do a full bucket water change to get the salt rate regular, hence the one bucket one day, two buckets the next water change method. I do put a drop or two of Prime in with each water change.

Right now, the baby fishies are out on the covered front porch in the bitterly cold blowing wind (forecast 34 wind chill factor). This morning when I asked hubs to help me bring them inside the front door he laughed at me. Tonight, as he is hunting down sweats to go out with the dogs, I'm laughing at him. So, the babies are tucked in with a huge moving pad wrapped around their tub. And an inverted bucket over the air pump. I suspect they will be fine; but I will worry about them.

Sometime in the next 7 to 10 days or so, they'll get set loose into their new home. It's a bit of a worry, how will the poor things find their food floating 3 feet over their heads! So yes, I've been raising my little baby fish with a golden spoon, but they'll soon go out into the big wide world and have to fend for themselves against frogs, snakes and birds. Maybe I should propagate more string algae to move with them into their new home! :lol: Actually, I am thinking that I will go and get one of the oil pans from WallyWorld and plant it with some Mondo Grass and sink it to the bottom of the pond next to the fish fort. The Mondo Grass will live just fine that far under water, and give the baby fish someplace to hide away at the bottom of the pond.

 

[crsublette]

Hey there, good reading, thanks for the thorough update. I was curious how it was working out for ya.

I confirmed that at least Petsmart gets their fish direct from the growers. Now, to my way of thinking ... the growers are going to be taking somewhat decent care of their fish. They will want them healthy enough to ship. The risk comes from any extended time in the tanks at Petsmart. That's why I go on fish receiving day. My skewed logic is that by getting them on the day that they are received, I have improved odds of getting healthy babies. Now I have to keep them healthy at home and before they go in my pond.

Good move.

I started my tub off with fresh from the tap water. I treated it, and let it run with the airstone for several days before adding the fish. I've done daily water changes, using water from the new side of the pond. After the holiday break, I will start tempering in water from the existing side of the pond with the water changes. This is to get the babies used to the water they will ultimately be living in. Today was the last salt day, so the tub water will start gradually loosing its salinity. I didn't buy a meter, I carefully measured out my water changing bucket and attempted to be as true as possible. It's just not practical to buy a meter when I might bring in new fish once or twice a year at most. I tested the water a bit. More so in the beginning. I alternated 10% change one day and 20% change the next day. It was easier for me to do a full bucket water change to get the salt rate regular, hence the one bucket one day, two buckets the next water change method. I do put a drop or two of Prime in with each water change.

Very nice. Yeah, those salinity meters are really unneccesary when properly following a good safe routine as ya described.


Welp, lets see how the next couple weeks work out. They're not in the clear just yet. Hope'n for the best

 

[gardengimp]

High time I came back with an update!

This batch of baby fish was let loose in the pond 10 days ago. We lost one of the babies around week six. No visible evidence of disease, other than this particular fish never really grew. It was about half the size of the other babies. Failure to thrive?

At any rate, they are now in the pond, and really tough to figure out if they are all still alive. I haven't found any dead, but we do have frogs. The weather has been very warm (so much so we had to turn on the AC), so they have been eating well. I ** think ** they are all accounted for.

Last week I brought home a dozen hand picked babies from the feeder tanks. Again, I went on fish delivery day, right after lunch when it is slow in the store. This time, I brought them home to a tank that was ready for them with .6% salted water. A week and a few days later, they are doing well, no signs of disease, and eating well.

Our unusual warm snap has departed, with chilly willy mid-40 lows on the way. I'll stop feeding, and leave the babies to nest and munch on the string algae in the nursery.

Speaking of string algae, I read someplace that salt is suppose to kill it. Well, I don't know at what rates, because I can assure you that the string algae in my nursery is holding up just fine, and I really think it helps the babies. Gives them someplace to hide out and gives them a food source.

 

[MarcusNZ]

That made for great reading. I recently introduced 12 fry to my pond. I had "QTed" them for a little over 2 weeks until the first started developing colour. Mine seem happy enough.I also have a runt amongst my new fry. I called him (sex unknown but I dont think he/she minds...)Otis because he didn't seem too bright (like in Garfield). When feeding time came around or if I walked up to the tub, all the other fry except Otis would duck for cover. He doesn't appear to be a strong swimmer either. I lost him for over a week after releasing them all into the big pond until a few days ago when I was killing bugs on my water plants. There he was, happilly waddling around as normal amongst the plants near the surface. He dosen't appear to have grown much but at least he has survived the first week. I'm rooting for the little nipper...

 

[HARO]

So you named him Otis, after a cartoon character named Odie?? rofile:
John

 

[gardengimp]

And how is Otis the little nipper doing?
Report time on the second tub of .13 hand picked goldfish. This time in the tub, I had twelve .13cent goldfish and 2 $3 goldfish. They came home from the Petsmart in bags with extra squirts of slime coat. After floating in the tub for a quarter hour, I drained the bag water through a net (and discarded) and put the babies straight into .6% salt & slime coat treated water. With a super big bunch of string algae. I still have a really hard time getting a good visual inspection on the little buggers inside a purple tub, but I never saw any signs of disease or ich. I lost two of the .13. One found floating, was really small and had not grown with the others. The second just disappeared. ::shrug::
Into the pond they went this week. It has been record breaking warm temps, so I decided to put them in and take my chances on any more cold fronts this year. Most of the babies have grown leaps and bounds, but two remain very small. I fed them a few hours after they went into the pond, and the two smalls are eating, so who knows.
My pond is small, but it is dang hard to figure out if all the fish I put in the pond are still alive and kicking in the pond. There are plenty of places to hide, or just hang out, and plenty of food in the pond. Plants, algae as well as tadpoles. Speaking of tadpoles, those little fish are just the right size for frog or snake snack. And the frogs and snakes are both a stirring - hence how the tadpoles got into the pond.
Thankfully, the $5 sarassa goldfish (which is the most I have ever paid for a pond fish) that started my research down treatment alley continues to flick her fins around the pond.
Yesterday, I had to go into the pond to rescue a pot overturned by some nighttime undesirable visitor. I stood in the pond and told the fish - 'OK kids, it's roll call time. Line up and raise your fin when I call your number.' They all ignored me, but a few did grab the opportunity to nibble on my legs.
No feeding the past three days, cold front heading in to us in the wee hours, forecasted frost this weekend. Brrrrrr ....

 

[MarcusNZ]

And how is Otis the little nipper doing?

Some have turned gold, some are calico (perhaps still changing), some are still black and little Otis is now white.
Next time I get a chance, I'll see if I can sneak a pic.

I'm a total noob at all this and didn't treat my nippers for anything. Fingers crossed nothing happens. They have been in a few weeks now with no issues.

Having this pond has brought me out into the yard more than I have ever been before. I think I'm addicted!