Plumbing question ?
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Confused here why have you connected the bottom drain up to your skimmer ?
You should plump it into your barrels thats what bottom drains are for mine come up into the first filter, down into the next and so on it is then pumped up from the pipe exiting the bio filter passed our UV-C and out into the pond .
A skimmer would go into a seperate box or as weve done it out over the over flow on the pond
Dave
You should plump it into your barrels thats what bottom drains are for mine come up into the first filter, down into the next and so on it is then pumped up from the pipe exiting the bio filter passed our UV-C and out into the pond .
A skimmer would go into a seperate box or as weve done it out over the over flow on the pond
Dave
Thats what the skimmer instructions said to do? I haven't hooked or cut anything yetConfused here why have you connected the bottom drain up to your skimmer ?
You should plump it into your barrels thats what bottom drains are for mine come up into the first filter, down into the next and so on it is then pumped up from the pipe exiting the bio filter passed our UV-C and out into the pond .
A skimmer would go into a seperate box or as weve done it out over the over flow on the pond
Dave
And I was trying to find a way to avoid having two pumps
Yes to both questions.View attachment 69080 Now my question is that without the filter being pressurized can I now goto the tpr's without another pump after the filter? Or will there not be any pressure? The pic doesn't show the filter but it will be between the skimmer and the UV FILTER. thanks for any and all advice
A very good question, you understand why a non-pressurized filter could be an issue and a pressurized wouldn't be. What's hanging you up I think is thinking a TPR requires pressure (by pressure we're talking something well above 0, obviously there is always some pressure).
First variable is the position of the filter's outflow pipe.
Outflow can be low, like a drain. In this case the elevation of the filter is important. Generally the top of the filter is set to be a few inches above the pond's water level because the water level in the filter is always a little higher than the pond's. If the filter is set too low it overflows. Too high and less water will be in the filter. As water level in the pond changes due to rain and water loss the level in the filter changes too.
Outflow can be high, basically an overflow pipe. In this case the filter can be any height above the pond you like. The water level in the filter will always be the same. The higher the filter the more pressure there can be at the TPRs. This is tricky. If you have large diameter pipe going from the filter to the UV/TPRs there won't be any pressure. For example, say your filter is 20' above the pond (just to make the point) so you have a vertical 20' pipe from the filter to the pond. The question whether water backs up into that pipe. If it were a clear pipe you could see a water level inside the pipe. The bigger the TPR opening the easier it is for water to exit and the lower the level in the vertical pipe and the less the pressure. The water level in the pipe might be the same as the pond's level, so no additional pressure is created no matter how high the filter is mounted. The smaller the TPR the higher the level in the vertical pipe and the higher the pressure...until the level gets so high that the filter overflows. So it's tricky to size everything. Valves can be used to some degree but these do reduce pressure so you end up paying to push less water, no benefit.
As a side, a pressurized filter is generally only pressurized on one side, between the filter and pump. The pressure drops (normally) in the pipe between the filter and pond. One benefit to pressurized filters is they can be mounted any where...below the pond's water level, above, doesn't matter.
But this really doesn't have to be so complex because high water pressure isn't desired for TPRs. When high pressure water comes out of the TPR it hits the pond water. Key word is hit. The stream of water breaks up, creates eddies, etc. A lot of of the electric cost goes into these non-productive movements. If you use that same electric and lower pressure by increasing volume (bigger TPR opening) you get more movement in the pond. In a perfect system the water coming out of the TPR would be about the same speed as you're wanting the pond to spin. So slower, higher volume, is better. That also makes filter design a lot easier.
For both cases of filter outflow placement the filter is generally mounted a few inches about pond water level. Then size the pipes (UV, TPRs) to be close to 0 friction loss. If you undersize those pipes you get backup and the filter has to be higher.
I try to stay away from boundary conditions and instead want the design to be able to handle a larger range. So I oversize the pipe (meaning if 1.5" pipe is very close to 0 friction loss I'd use 2") going to the TPR. Then deal with the final TPR by tweaking the nozzle. This nozzle tweaking really has to be done in any case because there are 2 openings. It can be done with valves but that's a huge friction loss so again, spending money on electric and getting less benefit. Since these run 24/7 I think it's worth a little tweaking.
Ok now I think you did a great job explaining that
So the design I have drawn should function properly after tweaking the tpr's by adding a valve directly before them? I am running 2" PVC to each tpr. Now should I stick with just 1 pump going through the skimmer as I have drawn? Thankshere is the skimmer I have the sk5Ok now I think you did a great job explaining that
I'm not a fan of valves, but yeah. I'd say adding valves right after the UV would be easiest and that allows more pipe for water flow to straighten itself before leaving the TPR.
Only because I like daydreaming about this stuff... for your size pond and shape I'd go with 1 basic return instead of 2. Then I'd have 4 smaller pipes, like 3/4" or 1", that point down in each corner to blow stuff out of the corner. A circular rotation in a rectangle shaped pond will normally collect stuff in the corners, even under the TPR. These would all be called TPRs, so I guess I'd be saying I'd have 5 total. But I'm just daydreaming. The 2 you have in the drawing will work very well.
Just for some trivia...some people would call your returns GPRs rather than TPR. GPR is a straight deal where TPR is angled. These are unfortunate terms because neither is very accurate, but that's the convention people use. GPR btw doesn't even have an agreed on meaning other than the flow comes out of the pond wall at 90 degrees to the wall. The "G" is gravity to some people and gap to others. But TPR is perfectly fine imo.
It will work, but that kind of depends on your definition. In another thread today I talked about a BD system having 3 components; drain, TPRs, filter. You have 2 of these but the filter component is missing. In that other thread I talked about whether that's important or not. Short answer is it depends on the owner's expectations, type of pond, etc. That's a whole deal by itself.
A DIYer can build however they like...the joy of building is important. But looking at it from another perspective, say someone was paying me to install a pond and I charged for a BD system and built the way you have it designed. I think the owner would have every right to a full refund. It isn't really a BD system because the filter part isn't proper. There are many kinds of filters and it isn't as simple as just say "there's a filter". It really has to be a proper filter imo.
20 years ago settlement chambers, vortex and bead filters were considered "proper BD filters". Back then I didn't even see the point to a BD in most ponds because those filters were so poor. Only in really high fish load ponds where removing 10-25% of waste was worth the hassle.
Today sieve filters are the "proper" filter, even if just DIY. They can remove a lot of waste 24/7. Fish takes a dump and maybe 30 minutes later the poo is out of the water. That's pretty impressive imo and makes BD sytems more useful to more kinds of ponds.
So what I'm saying is, to me, using a single pump and not having a gravity fed sieve really defeats most of the benefit to having a BD. I wouldn't bother, assuming this is to be a Water Garden and not a Koi pond with 20 show Koi. Instead I'd put that energy into a vacuum system. I think the cost is the same or less and the amount of work is about the same for both systems. The key difference is a proper BD system will remove waste 24/7 but is harder to get right. A vacuum system is simple and hard to get wrong.
To be clear...I don't know your goals...so I have no idea or opinion on which system might be better for you...I'm just typing stuff. I see a lot of people wanting to install a BD system because they think they will keep their pond clean, are no fuss, etc. But afterwards this rarely seems to be true because they don't actually install a BD system.
Couple of other things you could consider...
I like to pipe a bypass around the UV. That allows me to control flow thru the UV. That is important sometimes. The amount of flow thru a UV is a big part of whether it works or not through different conditions. A single valve would reduce every other system too, so I like a bypass. Lots of post from people with a UV and a green pond and no way to adjust flow so they're screwed until they rip out the system and install it properly.
I don't know the size of your drain, 3" or 4" I assume. And I don't know your pump size off hand. Those things determine the size of the TPR lines. Two 2" lines would not be enough for a 3" or a 4" drain. Just to get into the ballpark consider just the size of the pipe openings:
2" pipe = 3.14 sq in area
3" = 7.07 sq in
4" = 12.57 sq in
So two 2" pipes would have a total opening area of 3.14 * 2 = 6.28 sq in. That's less than one 3" and only half of a 4".
That's the easy part. Then you have to compute friction loss in the 2" plus a pump can pull more water than gravity can push. So say you had a 3" drain and a single TPR, the TPR would have be at least 4".
If you go with the BD system you might consider a get out of jail card option. After the UV create a manifold for the 2 TPR lines but also add a capped stub so additional lines can be added easily. When you turn on the system if the TPRs lines aren't big enough, have too much friction, etc., the filter will overflow. If that happens you can cut the cap off the stub (or unscrew if you use a threaded plug) and you can add more lines that just dump into the pond above the water level. That will solve the overflowing filter and you will still have some TPR flow. You can add a valve to these overflow lines to dial in the minimum overflow needed which maximizies TPR fow. Later if you like the overflow pipe(s) can be extended to the bottom of the pond to create more TPR flow.For that those pipes need to be vented (instead of using a 90 elbow you use a tee with the vertical being open to the air, with a short length of pipe sticking up).
The manifold only adds a cap or plug to your cost and can save you having to cut out everything after the UV and redoing which is not something you'd likely be in the mood for.
The filter needs an overflow bypass to handle the media getting clogged.