plumbing question

[EVMIII]

I've read so much I've confused myself. My pond is basically going to end up oval shaped, estimated about 5 K gallons.

Bottom drain - 3" this is going to gravity feed to a.series of three 55 gallon drums (settling and mechanically filtering. Pump will draw from 3rd drum and will split to two returns. A 4K p/h pump will be pulling through and pushing to the returns. Is this too much?

Skimmer (Savio filter Skimmer) with 55 watt UV light. This is going to feed my 150 gallon skippy style filter/waer fall located on the opposite side of the Skimmer. It came with a 4K p/h internal/external pump. Where do I locate the pump? It can sit in the Skimmer and push or I can put it closer to the skippy externally.

I am all planning a 6x 12 bog/veggie filter that is elevated and well gravity feed back into the main pond. How much flow for the bog? Can I take water from the return or Skimmer and send to the bog or do I need a seperate pump?

I understand these are pretty basic questions, I'm slowly learning. Thanks for all the help thus far.

Bud

 

[Waterbug]

I've read so much I've confused myself.

Where these things always get complicated is when multiple things have to work together.

Bottom drain - 3" this is going to gravity feed to a.series of three 55 gallon drums (settling and mechanically filtering. Pump will draw from 3rd drum and will split to two returns. A 4K p/h pump will be pulling through and pushing to the returns. Is this too much?

Yes, too much. 3" should really be in the 1800-2500 GPH range. Just talking pipe size here.

The next issue is pushing 4000 GPH thru a 55 gal tank. That isn't going to settle much of anything. Good rule of thumb is GPH * 10% = tank size. But this kind of depends on the performance you want. Some people are really happy if they see some dirt come out of the drum and consider that to be a working settling tank, and they think the dirt piling up in the pond can't be helped. Whatever makes a person happy, it's just a hobby. If you don't want dirt piling up inside the pond it takes some number crunching.

Hooking tanks in parallel instead of in series would reduce flow in each tank. Tricky though to balance the flow, tricky even to measure the flow. So you could hook something like 8 drums in in parallel for 4000 GPH to get reasonable settlement. Not great mine you, but reasonable.

The next issue is when you turn on the 4000 GPH pump the water level in each drum will go down. That could affect their filtering performance and being in series might even run the last drum dry. Kind of depends on what kind of media is in the drums, where pipes are placed, etc. But I'd be betting dry drum.

Skimmer (Savio filter Skimmer) with 55 watt UV light. This is going to feed my 150 gallon skippy style filter/waer fall located on the opposite side of the Skimmer. It came with a 4K p/h internal/external pump. Where do I locate the pump? It can sit in the Skimmer and push or I can put it closer to the skippy externally.

It should be as close to the skimmer as possible unless maybe if you ran a 4" line from the skimmer to the pump. Pumps do best at pushing water.

Normally UV goes after the filter so it gets cleaner water so it works better and there less chance of clogging. The basket in the skimmer catches a lot, but when you remove the basket to clean it leaves and stuff stuck behind the weir, stuck to the sides, etc., can get washed off and go into the UV and might not come out. And of course stuff is still coming into the skimmer while the basket is out.

I am all planning a 6x 12 bog/veggie filter that is elevated and well gravity feed back into the main pond. How much flow for the bog? Can I take water from the return or Skimmer and send to the bog or do I need a seperate pump?

Bogs can take as much flow as you like, meaning there no reduction in bio filtering at higher flows. Higher flow means more food, O2, carbon getting to the bacteria.

Bogs also act as mechanical filters, basically the same as a settling tank. Because water has to move thru the gravel it acts as speed bumps, limiting the speed no matter the pump size. Pushing 1,000,000 GPH thru a bog would still act as a settlement tank...but only for the water actually going thru the gravel. At high enough flow the water will back up and you'll see water on top of the gravel. Water moving across the top of the gravel wouldn't be very good mechanical or bio filtering unless macro algae starts growing there and then it's great (basically a stream). Flow can be so great that the water backs up enough to overflow the bog entirely. Adjusting the amount of gravel normally fixes both issues.

I think I understand what you're saying by "bog/veggie"...you mean a bog with some plants. That would really be just a bog. If you're counting on the benefits of a real veggie filter you will probably be disappointed. Initially, if plants are planted bare root, the bog will act as a veggie filter. As muck collects it will be less and less of a veggie filter and start producing more and more of the elements a veggie filter would remove. Not saying bogs aren't good, just they do what they do and that's it. Unless of course you clean the bog a couple of times a year which is a petty huge pain imo.

 

[EVMIII]

Thanks for the information; I was definitely thinking the 4k was too much. My Skimmer is located adjacent to my bog area, how do you think it would work if i split the 4k at the Skimmer and sent half to the bog and half to the skippy waterfall? This would eliminate the need to get another pump just or the bog area. I could pick up something in the 2.5 K to pull from my barrels.

I have an extra drum, do you think I would be better off splitting the return from the BD into two 2 drum settling/filtration(parallel). I was planning on a couple of returns, I could plumb each into a dedicated return line. That would require an additional pump but would seem to be a better arrangement. If i ran about 2K each that would be turning over pond about 1.5 times an hour.

The only pump I have is the afore mentioned 4k, I am not locked in to anything (pump wise, I already have the BD and Skimmer). Thanks again. Bud

 

[Waterbug]

Thanks for the information; I was definitely thinking the 4k was too much. My Skimmer is located adjacent to my bog area, how do you think it would work if i split the 4k at the Skimmer and sent half to the bog and half to the skippy waterfall? This would eliminate the need to get another pump just or the bog area. I could pick up something in the 2.5 K to pull from my barrels.

Devil is in the details. Not enough details to have an opinion, sorry. But in general it can be done.

I have an extra drum, do you think I would be better off splitting the return from the BD into two 2 drum settling/filtration(parallel).

Better, yes.

 

[Craig58]

If you put a bottom drain in, I would encourage you to go to a 4" line from the drain. You can reduce it to 3" or 2" just before your tank(s). Having a 4" pipe can mean less chance for anything getting stuck under the pond in the pipe. Try not to use any 90 degree bends if you can. The flow rate to the filter will be restricted by the smallest pipe you have. Having the reduction happen close to the filter means if you have to unstick or unclog something, you won't have to dig.

On a 5000 gal pond, a 4000 gph pump would not be unreasonable if you follow the rule of thumb of turning the pond water over once every hour or two. But as Waterbug indicated, the filtration capacity has to match the expected flow rate and the time of the water being in the chambers will be so high that you probably won't get the filtration you want. Splitting the flow between the bog and filter might be ok.

Also, as Waterbug indicated, UV after the filter. I would also suggest plumbing in a bypass return. That is a return that just goes from pump back to pond. So out of the pump, split the flow, some to the filter, some to the bypass. Then you can run the water from the pump, to whatever filter system you design, thru the UV and then back through the bog to the pond. You can then adjust the valves on each line and control how much goes to filtration, and how much to the bypass and back to the pond. It might take you some time to find the right settings and figure out the best flow rate for whatever DIY system you build.

Craig

 

[Waterbug]

Be sure to recompute flow rate if you do decide to step a 4" down to a 3" or 2". The smallest pipe is used to compute max flow, basically. For gravity flow a 2" pipe would max out in the 750-1000 GPH neighborhood imo.

Doing that creates another issue to be considered. 750-1000 GPH in a 4" pipe is too little flow imo to keep sediment from settling inside the pipe. That allows a build up over time, a place for stuff to collect and restrict flow. Most often bottom drains don't get to the point of clogging unfortunately. The flow will just be restricted. This is first seen in your filters running dry and sometimes burning out the pump. When the keeper arrives to check out the problem they find a burned out pump and filters that look perfectly normal, filled to the top. They replace the pump, swearing to not buy the previous brand pump ever again, start it up and everything looks normal. They won't notice the filters dropping a tiny bit in the relatively short time they look at the system running. Over several hours as levels continue to drop again and another burned out pump. Very difficult for an inexperienced keeper to figure out. In my ponds I would not step down a pipe as I only see the downside.

 

[EVMIII]

Learning all the time. I have my bottom drain already with a 3" drain. I plan to use the sweeping style 90 out of the drain. It will be a slow steady incline all the way to the filters (about a 2' rise over 20' of pipe). My new plan is to split this into two 2" pipes seperating into a two drum settling tank/filter. I'm working on a vortex style first drum and matala(or something similar) in the 2nd drum. Each drum will be pumped out to an individual return (maybe 2k per/hr in a 2" line).

I'm liking the idea of Y'ing the 2" pipe out of the pump from the Skimmer. I'd like two find a 2" that has a 1" offshoot to send to my bog area and the 2" to on to my stock tank/skippy filter/watefall. The pump I have is a Anjon Monsoon pump MS-4000 that came with the Savio Skimmer I have.

Unfortunately my UV light is designed to sit in my savio Skimmer/filter. It is after the leaf basket and pad filter but it can only work one place. Not ideal, but if it isn't effective I'll plumb in one in line later. Resources are not unlimited, but I don't want to cut a corner that will end up costing a lot more later.

Would you recommend Y'ing back to a single larger pump and then splitting again for the returns or for a dedicated pump for each return?

I have this drawn out on paper, but I am limited to this tablet that I am on so i can't show what I'm thinking. Thanks again for the feedback-

 

[whiskey]

EVmill
If you buy solvent 50mm y pipe you should be able to get a reducer of 40mm to fit instde y pipe and if required a 32mm reducerto go either inside 40mm or futher down the pipe work good luck
whiskey

 

[Waterbug]

I have my bottom drain already with a 3" drain. ... My new plan is to split this into two 2" pipes seperating into a two drum settling tank/filter.

Keep in mind that two 2" pipes carry a lot less volume than one 3". A 3" on a bottom drain is already on the low side and you'd be reducing it further.

 

[EVMIII]

O.K., plan is still evolving. Suppose I immediately expand to 4" from the BD and take it to a 100 gallon stock tank. How would I best setup the stock tank to act as an effective settling chamber? I could go from this tank to my 55 gallon drums in parallel and then on to my returns. I would run two independant pumps coming out of the drums pushing to the returns. Getting better?

 

[Waterbug]

I don't want to keep bugging you if you're looking for other opinions, not sure, so I'll bow out.

 

[Craig58]

First, here's a link to standard flow rates.
http://flexpvc.com/W...nPipeSize.shtml

You have two systems. Given the equipment you indicated, and initial design you suggested, I'd suggest the following.

System 1: This is basically an out-of-the box system.
Skimmer-->4K GPH pump-->UV-->Skippy waterfall.
I'd use this as is as is without any mods. But, I would use the 4K GPH submersible only pump on this.

System 2:
3" bottom drain-->gravity feed DIY drum filtration-->4K GPH pump--> two 2" return lines.

First, I'd want the bog feed with the cleanest, (mechancially), water possible so as to not clog up my bog too fast with waste. I would feed it from a one inch split off one of the 2" return lines from the drum filters.

I'd use 4 drums on the drum system. This would really be two filters, each with one coarse and one fine drum.

The 3" bottom drain splits into 3 three inch lines. One for a total bypass around the filters if needed. The other two lines each go to a coarse flitering or settling drum. Splitting the volume but keeping the pipe size will slow the velocity of the water entering the coarse drums. The coarse drum is connected to the finer drum by a 1.5" line. The finer drums drain via a 1.5" line as well that are connected to the 3" bypass line that goes to the 4K GPH External/Internal pump. The pump splits to two 2" lines with one of those splliting a 1" off to the bog.

The 1.5" lines effectively limit each drum system to 2100 GPH. That is 4200 GPH which is just above your pumps 4000K capacity. So these should provide all the water you need for your pump.

The drum tops must be placed level with the pond top. Place the drums a few inches higher to allow for error and overflow.
Any overflows on the drums should be about 2" from the top of the drum.

The 1.5" connecting lines and exit lines should be about 3-4" from the top of the drum. Install a sludge drain on the bottom of each drum.

I am also assuming you will have a pond overlow pipe in the pond.

Craig

 

[EVMIII]

Craig,
Thanks for the response. I hadn't thought about feeding the bog from the return but that is even easier than feeding from the skimmer and makes great sense. Do you think there is any advantage to flowing into a 100 gallon stock tank before the drums? For example, 3" from BD in to settling stock tank, 2 lines out to 2 drums (course) to 2 drums (fine) then consolidated to a single 2" line to pump. 2" pipe out if pump split to two seperate return lines. One line will be wye'd off with a one inch line to the bog. Also, I am planning a 2" overflow pipe as well.

Thanks,

Bud

 

[Craig58]

More filtration can't hurt! So feeding into the stock tank before the drums can't hurt. If you do that, widen the 3" to 4" before it enters the stock tank. That won't decrease any flow but will slow the velocity into the stock tank. That can help lower the mixing and turbidity in the stock tank and help things settle out more. I assume you'll build in series of baffles or use a very coarse media for this tank? Or a combination of both?

You shouldn't need a 2" overflow on the pond. I only typically suggest a 1/2" lines. I want them to be invisible for the most part and you typically only need to have a dribbile of water coming out it to keep up with most heavy rains. 1/2" can flow 7 GPM. It has to rain really hard to use up that capacity on the average backyard pond! But a 1/2 doesn't take a lot to clog either. So you check it every few days. We usually have the hose out enough that I just take the hose and squirt it from the opposite end. But my over flow pipes are short, only about 15" in length with no turns.

Craig

 

[Waterbug]

Bud, I got your PM inviting me to bug you further, so I will.

I think you're missing the details. I'm not sure if you're hearing standard practices and choosing to do your own thing (which is what I normally do, so not a dig) or just reading past the details.

Using the rule of thumb of a settling tank being at least 10% of flow your 100 gal tank could handle 1000 GPH. But the rule of thumb for minimum 3" or 4" bottom drain flow is way higher than 1000 GPH. So going by the rule of thumb your system wouldn't work. The 100 gal tank will no doubt collect some material, and you may be happy with that. But most experienced pond keepers would consider that small amount as insignificant and wouldn't call it a settlement tank. If you don't want to use the rule of thumb please say that so I don't waste your and my time nagging about it. I have no vested interest in whatever your decision is and I would not consider it right or wrong because it all comes down to the details, so there isn't a right or wrong at this point.

This is all about details. For example the charts Craig linked to are for pressurized pipes, a pump is attached. What you're doing is purely gravity. Further there's virtually no drop in elevation in a bottom drain system so the pressure level in the pipe is extremely low, I think about 0.00005 psi at sea level and pipe outlet being 1.2" lower than the pond level. If you don't read things like that chart closely and understand what's there then you might think your 3" drain can flow at 8400 GPH...you're going to be seriously disappointed. I suggest using a gravity flow calculator instead, lots out there.

A vertical pipe can support much higher flow than a pipe that's horizontal. A gravity flow bottom drain pipe is basically horizontal as far as pressure is concerned.

Using the calculator for a 3" pipe that drops 1/2" the max flow is 2204 GPH...surprise, surprise right in the rule of thumb range of 1800-2500 GPH. You can lower the drain outlet: 1" = 3204 GPH, 2" = 4659 GPH, etc. So drop can be adjusted to work for different pump sizes. There are lots of ways to skin the cat if you're sure of your numbers.

That's why rules of thumb are used, because of variables and to stay in the ballpark. I can do 10% of 4000 GPH in my head to know a 100 gal settling tank isn't going to work. Beyond that there are other things that effects settling like tank shape, placement of in and out flows, brushes inside the tank, etc. So if you said your tank was 300 gals then maybe you could add brushes or use a vortex tank, or something. It gets a lot more complex the further away from rules of thumbs.