Parked Shubunkin

[cerceau]

An 8" shubunkin added to our three large koi after a recent expansion of our pond was quite agile the first two days but then became lethargic and now spend most of the day in a shallow place seemingly sleeping. The basic water parameters appear normal, although the salinity is only 0.5% (I intend to add some salt). Could it be a belated shock of transplantation? Should he just be left alone?

 

[Mmathis]

Did you quarantine the fish before you added it with the rest? The Shubie could just be reacting to stress, but if probably wouldn't hurt to take it out and quarantine it for a few weeks -- if the fish has a disease or parasites, the added stress of a new environement could be making it sick. At least it would give the Shubie a chance to rest and adjust. But if it was already carrying something, the rest of your fish have been exposed, so be sure to keep a close eye on them, as well.

How large is your pond, and when you say "large koi," how big are they? What kind of filtration & aeration are you using, and what have your temperatures been running [better yet, if you check the temp of your water.].

We really like to see the actual numbers that you get when you check your water parameters. The numbers offer more information when there is a potential problem to solve. And I don't know that much about koi ponds to know the significance of checking salinity, but personally I'm of the opinion that salt should only be used as a therapeutic treatment and not added to the pond -- koi and goldfish are freshwater fish. But someone will correct me here if I'm wrong about this -- just my opinion [I don't mean, correct me if I'm wrong about koi being freshwater fish, but the part about adding salt routinely...]

 

[mgmine]

I'm guessing that he/she is just getting used to new surroundings. I put a small koi in last fall and thought he was dead and gone. Then a few weeks ago he came out of hiding and now swims withe others. He lived on string algae and never came out from hiding even to feed.

 

[Lisak1]

Hmmm... no. A fish that is not moving and is exposed like that is definitely not normal. A scared fish will hide itself as best as possible, not lay out where you can see it. Have the koi been chasing it at all? Our koi chase the shubbys during spawning and they will frequently rest in the shallow areas. If not, I'd say there's more to it than that.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Add another Shubby and watch how fast the behavior changes.

 

[HARO]

Why the salt? Is this a salt-water pond?
John

 

[cerceau]

• Shubie's behaviour: the pond was expanded (to ab. 1,300 gal.), and a week ago we added it to the three one-foot long, 10-year old koi. The shubie (8") was shipped by koi-to-the world, with the instruction to let it in after the temp. in the bag is matched to that in the pond. It swam merrily at first, ate some, I don't think it was chased around by the big fish; then it hid under a rock for a day, so that I thought it had been taken by a heron or something; then reappeared and now spend all the time in that shallow end of the pond, as if sleeping.
• Parasites: don't know but I added PraziPro to the water.
• Salinity: Having very little pond experience, I just try to follow what I read. Since the pond has a liner, it receives and dissolves no natural salts from the soil, so it is generally considered healthy to add salt to keep it within the 0.13 —0.25% (according to my KoiMedic probe's instructions). Is this not a common view? At a lower level, I understand, the fish absorb water through osmosis and expend energy trying to expel extra fluids (because the fish's body has higher salinity than the water it's in); raising the salinity levels reverses that osmosis — which may lead to dehydration if it's too salty (over 0.5%).

 

[ZmanArt007]

You said that the salinity is 0.5%. Do not add more salt if that is the case. If you mean that it is 0.05%, then adding a little is okay.

 

[cerceau]

Sorry — misread this new meter. It's now 0.13 % (don't know how this translates into specific gravity), which I understand is at the bottom of the desirable range?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Forget the salinity! It has nothing to do with the Goldfish's behavior. Goldfish are gregarious and like to be with others of their specie. Get another Shubby!

 

[Mmathis]

@cerceau How is your fish doing today?

 

[cerceau]

Same as before: quiet. Will swim if nudged. Then parks again in the same spot, fins folded. Is moving its mouth constantly, as if catching food, but will not eat if offered. I've noticed that its eyes are as if covered by light grey veil, like "eyelids". I've put in a separate tank wit higher salinity, in case it has parasites. But maybe the opposite is true and "Tadpole" is right — should get another one to keep him company! Although I'm afraid that boredom is not what he is suffering from at the moment.

 

[cerceau]

Here аre the best pictures I could take in the separate tank (view from above since it's not an aquarium). There seems to be some skin flaking, and some of the original blue spots appear to be grayish. Any advice?

 

[Mmathis]

@cerceau, no, I think your fish is sick. Don't put it with any other fish.

Without going back and reading every post, I may be repeating.

THE BASICS FOR NOW:

• Do you have the Shubie in a separate container/tank? If not, it needs to be isolated or quarantined!
• If possible, add an airstone [fine bubbles] and aerate the water the fish is in.
• Keep the water clean -- frequent water changes with treated [de-chlor] water. This is the one time that I would "salt" a fish's water -- there are theraputic levels, but you'd have to look that up.

---- Why I don't agree with routinely adding salt to ponds.... If you keep your fish in salted water all the time, when you really need for the salt to be beneficial, it won't be as effective ----

I know nothing about fish diseases, so won't even try to diagnose this or offer treatment options. But, do you have or do you have access to a microscope? It's always helpful [when you can] to get a scraping off the fish to look for parasites, but I understand that not everyone can do this.

Please tell us everything that you can observe about the fish and its behavior: (we know it has clamped fins, not moving much, maybe over active slime coat). Anything you can describe will be helpful!

@Dave 54 @koiguy1969 @fishin4cars Can you guys help?

 

[Dave 54]

It looks like your shubinkin is producing exessive mucus most probably because you did not quarentine either it or the koi carp in a filtered QT tank for 4 week though I usually QT my koi for a total of 6 weeks had you done this you may have avioded an outbreak .
Also whilst in QT the koi should have a companion fish because they handle QT better that way.
So whats wrong with your shubunkin?
Well looking at it for some time I'd hazzard a guess and say that your fish has either Gyrodactylus or Dactylogyrus names either skin or gill flukes .
We will find the odd fluke or two on a normal skin scrape but if we did yours we would find higher numbers on the slide it means hat things arent well in your pond and this has allowed he flukes to reproduce in very high numbers ,,
Iyt is important that you run your pond in the best optimum condition as you possibly can also to increase the amount of Oxygen going into the pond as well as do routine maintenance to your pond , clearing the bottom of detritus dead leaves etc .
What treatment I would normally use Kusuri Fluke M but you could if you wish as an alternative threatmennt treat your pond with Malachite and Formalin which would be at a dose rate dependent on the stregth of the solution * When using M&F if you have salt in the system and a Ph of 8.5 it may become toxic .
Another treatment you could use would be the Nuclear option of using Pertessium Permanganate at what ever US gallonage equates to the UK's Imperial mesurements of 220gallons Imperial or 1,000 litres at dose rate of 1.5g per 220 gaalons imperial or 1,000 litres , this treatment can be repeated every 5-7 days for up to 3 wweks.
One last option that is Superverm a sheep dip treatment at 1g ber 220 gallons Imperial or 1000 litres.its an organophosphare treatment somewhat highly illegal in the UK .

Dave