My waterfall hates me!

[wispfox]

Alright, so.

The pond - and attached waterfall - came with the house when we bought it a couple of years ago.

We tried then to get the waterfall working, but it was obviously leaking somewhere.

Fast forward to a week or so ago, when I disasembled the waterfall down to all but one of the rocks above the liner (I still regret not getting that last one out, but I thought it would be ok!). The liner looked like it covered enough to prevent water from escaping, and I believed (apparently inaccurately) that great stuff pond and stone would help with any potential ways the water might be escaping around the liner. Unfortunately, the stuff doesn't appear to actually _seal_ stone to liner, and I'm guessing there's somewhere behind that bottom stone where the water is going, and then escaping. Actually, I suspect that it is pooling behind the bottom rock somewhere, and spilling past the liner when the level is higher than the liner.

So supposing that I find the energy and time to pull out those rocks, including the bottom-most one... how does one prevent pooling in the liner behind one's rocks? At a guess, you want the rocks and whatever the liner is resting on to have a slight slope toward the pond. Perhaps using sand to encourage this? And a level to make sure! Of course, rocks aren't level themselves, so perhaps more than a slight slope!

Anyway. Darn you, waterfall! And of course, using a pipe on my skippy just means that it has a slow leak, currently falling onto the waterfall (probably better than when the skippy wasn't incorporated into the waterfall, though).

Thoughts?

From when I got down to, but not below, the last rock. You can see how big the liner is in it:


General idea of the current state of the pipe and outflow:


The leaking connection plus my attempts at using great stuff to prevent the water from going where I did not want:

 

[taherrmann4]

My waterfall is sloped at each level about an inch or more to keep the water flowing down hill and not pooling anywhere that I don't want it to.

In the last pic is the white pvc just temporary b/c of your leak?

 

[wispfox]

tahermann4: what do you use to encourage the stones to be sloped? Sand? Something else?

Yes, the pvc is because of the leak. If I can fix that, the PVC goes away.

 

[DrCase]

Every time i make a waterfall its one piece of liner. one end in the pond and the other back to the top of the fall
When the water gets around a rock its going to end up back in the pond no water loss

 

[wispfox]

Every time i make a waterfall its one piece of liner. one end in the pond and the other back to the top of the fall
When the water gets around a rock its going to end up back in the pond no water loss

Yeah, I thought that, too! Perhaps the lack of sufficient slope is, as I hypothesized, the problem. I think the liner is holding some water (it may not be flat, entirely aisde from any problem with not being slightly tipped forward) which eventually starts to leak due to being higher than the liner sides. This is a pre-existing liner, too. It didn't act like an immediate leak, which is why I suspect overflow, rather than damage.

I'm hoping that's all it is, but when I go back in (probably Thursday, when it should be nice out), I should be able to get a better idea what's going on.

 

[Waterbug]

Waterfalls are worthy adversaries. wispfox, you have already learned more than many pond builders.

Pooling water is not a problem. If you picture a glass full of water every drop you then add a drop comes out. As long as the water in contained within the liner.

It doesn't really matter which way rocks pitch or their shape. It's not a roof. And even if a rock is pitched forward water can still, and will, run uphill on the bottom side. And tight gaps will cause capillary action which can a large amount of water a long distance. The tipping of rock can keep more water visible, but sure won't make a water tight falls on its own. Filling the voids behind the rocks is an easier solution imo for keeping more water visible.

Here's a recent thread on how I build waterfalls.

 

[addy1]

Great stuff is water permeable, it will let water through it. It works to direct water, but not stop it from going where you don't want it to go.

 

[wispfox]

waterbug: Wow. That post is fabulous.

Definitely need to take a closer look on how it was done.

On the plus side, the pond itself isn't leaking.

 

[wispfox]

Great stuff is water permeable, it will let water through it. It works to direct water, but not stop it from going where you don't want it to go.

Yeah, so I've found out.

Glad to have it confirmed, though! Was really confused...

 

[taherrmann4]

When I built my falls and dug it out I sloped the dirt an inch or so then just laid the liner (one piece) then the rocks on top of that. I filled any small voids between the bigger rocks with smaller stones and other flat rocks. The reason I sloped most of my rocks is that I wanted to get the majority of the water flowing over the end of the rocks and not on the sides or around the rocks. If I didn't slope the big rock that goes from my waterfall to the big pond it would not have the right look and amount flowing over the end of it.

 

[Waterbug]

Great Stuff is a brand name used for several foam products.

Their latex foams don't expand, are open cell and is water permeable. Should never be used around a pond imo.

Their polyurethane foams expand, are closed cell and is not water permeable once cured. This is the only kind that should be used around a pond, if any foam is going to be used.

 

[wispfox]

I used the one that said pond and stone, so it should have been ok, I think. Eh.

 

[Waterbug]

Wow, I didn't realize they made one for ponds. When I started out in backyard ponds there was only one product and we just called it "Great Stuff". It was polyurethane but yellow, it's natural color. I think they now call it Crack and Fill or something. Red can.Then some companies started making a black version for waterfalls and it cost like 5 times more, just for the black coloring, it was still just polyurethane.

So good for them to get in on that market. And a quick search I see they only charge about 3 times more.

So yes, the Pond and Stone is polyurethane, closed cell, not water permeable.

 

[wispfox]

My suspicion is that - on top of having not looked past the bottom rock in the waterfall, I tried adding great stuff to spots where there was still water. So it failed to stick.

In pulling things out and finding out what was going on with the liner (I suspect that there was at least one place the water could escape the liner, due to how it was set up; I'm testing right now, with a different configuration), I noticed that the ones which had not been wet when it was applied were firmly joined. The others were not. So.

Fairly sure the instructions did not mention water as a problem. Ah, well. Learning is good!

Underneath the rock I had not previously removed:


Moved the liner so it's more clearly not letting water escape:


And now, I'm testing that I don't lose water.

 

[capewind]

ALWAYS something to learn