Murky, cloudy water problem

[Gloria K.]

I have a 1000 gallon pond in my backyard with 6 Koi fish and 2 turtles. I've had this pond for a year and the water has always been crystal-clear but within the past three weeks it has become cloudy, dirty looking, and seems to have a brownish tinge. The company that installed the pond suggested using AlgaeFix which I did, and at least 3 treatments of Ultra Clear sludge digester which I did also. The company that makes this recommended using double doses. The water is just barely a little better than it was. My next step is to try using Ultra Clear SST specialized bacteria for problem ponds . My question is has anyone safely used this with Koi fish in the pond? Did it help clear the water? This is pretty much my last hope so I need some answers.
My filtering system earth based system with a PVC pipe at the bottom of the pond and pebbles 3 inches deep covering the bottom. The pond was completely cleaned professionally in March but never seemed to become crystal-clear again after that.
Thank you for any help you can give me.

 

[Tula]

Gloria,
I'm not sure I understand what an earth based filter system is, perhaps you can enlighten me?

Have you done any water changes? it's important to add de chlorinator when doing them, so you don't damage your fish's gills. If it were my pond, I'd not add things to the pond, but rather would focus on adding clean fresh water ( treating for chorine / Cholramines - sp?) and adding aeration .

Does your pond take full sun, do you have some shade or plants? I'm not an expert, but have read that turtles need good filtration.

 

[Gloria K.]

Gloria,
I'm not sure I understand what an earth based filter system is, perhaps you can enlighten me?

Have you done any water changes? it's important to add de chlorinator when doing them, so you don't damage your fish's gills. If it were my pond, I'd not add things to the pond, but rather would focus on adding clean fresh water ( treating for chorine / Cholramines - sp?) and adding aeration .

Does your pond take full sun, do you have some shade or plants? I'm not an expert, but have read that turtles need good filtration.

Yes my pond does take full sun but only until about 1:30 in the afternoon I drop both awnings which shades the pond completely from the hot afternoon sun.
I wish I could give you more information about this filter because it seems to puzzle most people. I'm not sure what it's called but it's not an actual filter like a piece of equipment. It is a PVC pipe placed at the bottom and water filters through the pebbles over that pipe and up through the waterfalls. I'm told by the company have been using this filter for several years and works perfectly. They install a lot of ponds here in the Las Vegas area so I'm sure they must know what they're talking about. They tell me it will not need cleaning for at least 5 to 7 years depending on how many fish I stock.
The only water change I've done in a year is having it cleaned buy them a couple of months ago. I'm getting the feeling that this pond could use another complete water change but why? What caused the cloudiness in the first place? This is what the pond looked like a month before I had it cleaned.

 

[Tula]

Gloria,
I don't think you need to do a complete water change, but rather regular partial water changes. Folks do this several ways, some pumping out precise amounts, I just overflow my hose to the pond for a period of time.

Your filter system seems almost like a skippy filter, but in your pond. I gather the pebbles are designed to gather fish waste and debris? If there is waste and debris in the pebbles, has anything stirred it up? I used to have gravel in the bottom of my pond, but had it removed...it's easier now for me to net out debris. It's possible your filter system isn't enough to clarify your water....do you have a UV light?

 

[JohnHuff]

Ya, actually we talked about this in another thread. It's some kind of a underwater gravel filtration system. In essence the bottom of your pond acts as a bog filter where the dirt accumulates for 5-7 years.

Not sure what to say except it's probably the worse filter I've ever heard of. It's like saying you don't need to go to the bathroom for 5-7 years because you'll be wearing a diaper that will hold 5-7 years of excrement.

It's a fact that fish produce poop and that poop needs to be cleaned out of the pond. The cloudiness is all the accumulated deposited excrement that was stirred up by the professional pond cleaners.

Do not add any more chemicals to the pond, it won't help. You need a mechanical filter to catch all that suspended stuff in your water.

 

[j.w]

Sounds kind of like an under gravel filter like they use for aquariums. Or is the pvc in an actual filter container w/ gravel in there? If it is the under gravel deal I used those in my aquariums and they would not suck up all the debris so I would still have to vacuum the bottom and do partial water changes. I don't put gravel or any rocks on the bottom of my pond for ease of cleaning. I don't like the build up of muck in the rocks. If you take a long net or stick and stir up that gravel does gunk fly around in the water in a cloudy fashion? If so I think your are having a problem of that system not being able to keep up w/it all.

 

[Gloria K.]

Ya, actually we talked about this in another thread. It's some kind of a underwater gravel filtration system. In essence the bottom of your pond acts as a bog filter where the dirt accumulates for 5-7 years.

Not sure what to say except it's probably the worse filter I've ever heard of. It's like saying you don't need to go to the bathroom for 5-7 years because you'll be wearing a diaper that will hold 5-7 years of excrement.

It's a fact that fish produce poop and that poop needs to be cleaned out of the pond. The cloudiness is all the accumulated deposited excrement that was stirred up by the professional pond cleaners.

Do not add any more chemicals to the pond, it won't help. You need a mechanical filter to catch all that suspended stuff in your water.

That's exactly what I was thinking too. I wish I had known more about this before I had the pond installed but it seems that's the only kind of filter they use and seems to feel that it works for them. They are the largest pond installer in the Las Vegas area and as I said they do a lot of ponds here . They are booked solid until October, so something works for them. My thoughts are the same as yours.
I have a three level waterfall and I'm going to scoop up a jar full of water from the pond and then scoop a jar full of water from the top of the waterfall after it has gone through the filter and see if there's any difference.

 

[Calvin]

I have the same problem 1,500 out of know where it got cloudy I did a water change

 

[JohnHuff]

They are the largest pond installer in the Las Vegas area and as I said they do a lot of ponds here . They are booked solid until October, so something works for them.

You're in LV, right? So Casinos make a lot of money too, something works for them but it may not be working for their customers the same way. I'm not saying the pond business is rigged or that your installer is a bad one, just that correlation and causation ain't the same thing. If you like ponds, stick around the forum, you'll be a pro in no time. I'm a newbie to this racket and I got 26 years on you.

Someone will be around this thread in a while and they'll suggest quilt batting in a crate under the waterfall. That'll catch a lot of the murky suspended stuff.

 

[Lisak1]

I'm curious why you had your pond cleaned when it was so clear? Not that it matters in the slightest, but I'm just curious.

 

[CometKeith]

Hi Gloria, My pond gets a lot of tannins from leaves in the fall/winter and always turns a nice shade of brown by spring. I simply do numerous 10-15% water changes. I do this every weekend for 6 weeks and it shows good results after 3-4 weeks. Quilt batting as mentioned above is also recommended by some folks here. It will pick up a lot of the small particulates in the water. i would recommend these approaches before you try doing anything major.

 

[Dave 54]

That's exactly what I was thinking too. I wish I had known more about this before I had the pond installed but it seems that's the only kind of filter they use and seems to feel that it works for them. They are the largest pond installer in the Las Vegas area and as I said they do a lot of ponds here . They are booked solid until October, so something works for them. My thoughts are the same as yours.
I have a three level waterfall and I'm going to scoop up a jar full of water from the pond and then scoop a jar full of water from the top of the waterfall after it has gone through the filter and see if there's any difference.

Gloria undergravel filtration of ponds is an old idea 50's 60's back at the start of koi keeping in the west it doesnt work its old school and ponds have moved on since then you wont see it in the UK we use bottom drains hooked into filters then back through the pump through a UV-c and into the pond again .
I uggest strongly that you scrap it and buy a multibay syste for your pond.
As I previosely said we have the same gallonage and double if not trebble your stocking levels and crystal clear water.


Dave

 

[crsublette]

That's exactly what I was thinking too. I wish I had known more about this before I had the pond installed but it seems that's the only kind of filter they use and seems to feel that it works for them. They are the largest pond installer in the Las Vegas area and as I said they do a lot of ponds here . They are booked solid until October, so something works for them. My thoughts are the same as yours.
I have a three level waterfall and I'm going to scoop up a jar full of water from the pond and then scoop a jar full of water from the top of the waterfall after it has gone through the filter and see if there's any difference.

Unfortunately, there are many pond builders that are like barbers or salons. If you ask them if you need a hair cut or a manicure etc, then they will always say "yes". Many pond builders take the same approach with ponds by building ponds in a particular manner so that the pond builder is doing some type of maintenance job and is never cut out of the picture. I bet ya this is why they are booked solid until October due to the design of pond they built for you.

I am a much bigger fan of a bog instead of a floor gravel filter and adding a pre-filter is incredibly easy and cheap, which the pre-filter dramatically helps bogs. Bogs are very easy to build. A bog is much like what the builder did for you except the gravel is in a raised flower garden. This level of separation, between the gravel and pond, makes cleaning a pond much easier. The sequences goes like this... Pre-filter connected to pump then pump pushing water through a pressurized foam container and then the water is push at the bottom of the bog, which is a separate raised flower garden of any size and shape you desire, then the water from the bog flows back into the pond like a waterfall.


Here is how I did mine and my submersible pump never once got clogged and I did not have to clean any filter... I used a submersible pump then covered this with a lawn irrigation valve box, that has holes drilled all over it and filled the valve box with netting. The netting I used was the same type of netting used to stop leaves from entering the pond. Placed the lid on it, which also had holes drilled all over it. Then, on top of this, I put a small pile of small river rock and then, on top of this, a single layer of larger river rock. Then, my water was pushed through a pressurized container with foam in it; these type of devices are quite often found in pond stores and I buried mine so that it never froze. I only had to clean the foam container once a season.

For 2 years, I operated this way 24/7, through winter, and I never had any filter clogging issues. Last year, I got lazy about cleaning the leaves and so they just layered over the top of my rock pre-filter. Still, the pump never got clogged and was pushing water quite well.

You can setup a pre-filter like this and then have the water pushed into a raised flower garden bog, which then waterfalls back into your pond, and that's all you need.

If you want to get more experimental, then, instead of a bog, you can implement what is called an Anoxic filter. This essentially only involves aquatic plant pots, kitty litter, and an aquarium plant medium called Laterite.


So, if you know of a nice, outgoing, hard working, strong fella to help you, then you will never have any type of problems with this setup unless there becomes too many fish.

 

[crsublette]

That's exactly what I was thinking too. I wish I had known more about this before I had the pond installed but it seems that's the only kind of filter they use and seems to feel that it works for them. They are the largest pond installer in the Las Vegas area and as I said they do a lot of ponds here . They are booked solid until October, so something works for them. My thoughts are the same as yours.
I have a three level waterfall and I'm going to scoop up a jar full of water from the pond and then scoop a jar full of water from the top of the waterfall after it has gone through the filter and see if there's any difference.

Aquascape is a major national company that has pushed these type of undergravel filtration pond setups. They work fine as long as proper maintenance is done, that is like anything. However, ponds are built nowadays so that you never have to clean the pond except for a quite basic vacuuming that you can do without draining the pond and is less stressful to fish.

Dave is correct with the bottom drains, but much about a bottom drain's effectiveness comes down to pond design and not just equipment. With a good pond design and bottom drain, you will never even have to vacuum the pond, but don't fret about this. Gloria, you still have viable options with what you have right now.


Look for a koi, goldfish, or pond hobbyist club in your area. I imagine the Las Vegas area has many. These folk are good about finding an honest pond builder, that can work with what you have, so that things can change a little so that you do not have to pay so much money to someone to clean the pond.

 

[Lisak1]

Aquascape is a major national company that has pushed these type of undergravel filtration pond setups. They work fine as long as proper maintenance is done, that is like anything. However, ponds are built nowadays so that you never have to clean the pond except for a quite basic vacuuming that you can do without draining the pond and is less stressful to fish.

I have seen dozens of Aquascape ponds - never have I seen one with a setup like Gloria describes. Aquascape builds an ecosystem pond - a skimmer and a biofalls. Rocks, yes. Gravel, yes. But no bottom drain or any kind of PVC pipe at the bottom of the pond. This is the first time I've ever heard of anyone with a "filter" like Gloria is describing.

Sorry - I know this has nothing to do with the OPs question... just wanted to clarify that this is not a pond style promoted by AS. Maybe you meant another well-known pond builder?