MANAGING WATER CHEMISTRIES: AMMONIA & pH

Mmathis

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Am I correct to do a water change with an ammonia rise, even if it's the lowest reading per my kit? When I tested yesterday, the color was in between 0ppm and 0.25ppm, but I took it for 0.25. Anyway, to be safe, I did a 10% change. Got some crushed oyster shells and added a few pounds of that since my KH is low and my pH took a rise [previously stable at 7.8 -- now up to 8.2]. And yes, I do test same time of day.

And is it overkill to retest the day following an intervention?

Fish seem fine. Normal behavior. [possible reason for ammonia rise: they may have been over fed -- the week I was in Michigan, told Hubby he could feed them, just so he could have the pleasure of viewing them, but don't know how often or how much he fed...... Hmmmm].

See my previous thread, last post, #13. Have all my results graphed.
https://www.gardenpondforum.com/topic/9736-water-test-results-please-demystify-in-simple-terms/

How will I know if the pond has cycled? Does it take longer for larger ponds?
 
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What is the size of your pond? How old is it? Fish load? Etc. I'm sure that info is other threads, just don't have the time to hunt it down.
 

Mmathis

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3200 gal., 5+ weeks old, 15 or so small to med. (no more than 2") goldfish, dozen or so snails, lots of plants, 100 gal. SKIPPY, 3600gph pump (which is also spraying into the turtle side), and one spitter. Oh, and a bunch of toad-poles.
 

fishin4cars

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I would say your in the beginning stages of the pond cycling. For sure if you get a reading of .50ppm ammonia continue to water change. MOST ponds and fish tanks for that matter cycle in about 5-8 weeks depending on factors such as waste, oxygen, stocking load, introduction of bacteria. etc. Don't make any drastic water changes or do anything to drastically change any water parameter right now. Give the pond some time to kind of balance out. Adding oyster shell won't hurt but I would hold back trying to change anything else other than keeping the ammonia in check. BTW .25 is a good reading as you know your feeding the bacteria, you should start seeing nitrite readings in the next couple of weeks. don't want them getting overly high either and they could if the pond was actually overfed.
 

fishin4cars

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It's a good idea to but not absolutely needed. The nitrites will rise then fall as they are converted to nitrates. As you start seeing this take place it means that the colony of bacteria is now growing to the size needed to maintain the load. NOT good to add more life right after. Wait at least a week or two before adding fish or lots more plants. Let the pond become more balanced and stable. This could take a few weeks to several months and the ONLY way to tell is continued testing. If the ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates continue to stay elevated over a two or three week period then it would be necessary to do the water change to get the levels down. Usually nature takes care of this step, The rain and bateria in most ponds will bring the paramters back in check and the plants consume the nitrates as the pond balances.
 

Mmathis

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If the ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates continue to stay elevated over a two or three week period then it would be necessary to do the water change to get the levels down. Usually nature takes care of this step, The rain and bateria in most ponds will bring the paramters back in check and the plants consume the nitrates as the pond balances.

So for this stage, if I'm understanding, it's a matter of monitoring, allowing some AN&N to be present, but making sure the levels stay low and stay stable. What do you consider "elevated" in this case? I thought any level was dangerous.

IOW, what are OK or "safe" numbers for me to shoot for? And when should I intervene?

And I did wonder about the water changes, at least during this new-pond stage. I kept thinking that if I eliminate all the ammonia, I was defeating the purpose of establishing my bacteria. No wonder my plants are just sorta hanging-in-there.... :)
 

fishin4cars

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Your understanding perfectly! This is where different opinions and answers will start to differ. 0 is the best under normal conditions but your right, your wanting to feed the bacteria so a 0 reading right now is not ideal. ammonia try to keep below .25, anything above .50 start trying to control with water changes or ammonia lock. Nitrites, they are going to spike, no way around it. If they start getting over half way up the chart then you might want to consider water changes. Myself, I let that just take it's course. It usually only last for about a week or so then drops right back down on it's own. Nitrates. anything under 40ppm is tolerable by both Koi and Goldfish. goldfish can handle a little higher than koi but why push the limits on that one. lots of plants and water changes usually is all that are needed to keep nitrates in check. Well and keeping your filter maintained properly. Not to clean, but not clogged with lots of muck either. Ideal range for nitrates In a WATERGARDEN is around the 10-20 ppm range. (That's you, TM) Ideal for Koi or specific fish and no plants, closer to 0 the better.
 

Mmathis

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Thanks, Larkin! It's starting to make sense, now, and I mean that in a logical, common sense kind of way.

BTW, my water has been crystal clear for several weeks. Only had a brief algae bloom during the first week, then had the cola-water for weeks after that. Loving to be able to SEE my fish, and don't want to jinx myself, but can I expect another algae bloom at some point before pond has "cycled?"
 

fishin4cars

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There is that possibility, If your getting all the rain we have been and the heat yes, it's quite possible. Is it from the pond cycling, not really. The good news is that once the weather starts cooling the less likely a algae bloom will happen. During the cool months if your having green water issues there is usually a underlying cause such leaf build up or muck build up that is more than the pond can breakdown naturally. I've very seldom had issues with cloudy or green water once the first frost come in until late spring.
 

crsublette

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Really depends on how serious you want to be about the situation.

Once your fish show symptoms of something wrong, saving the fish might be too late if not corrected extremely quick then all you can do is save the fish that appear to be doing ok before they get sick.

IOW, what are OK or "safe" numbers for me to shoot for? And when should I intervene?
All depends on who ya ask. Generally you should never be registering any ammonia; if you do register something, it should disappear within just a few days. California Koi Club - Ammonia calculator and an idea of what they think where ammonia should reside.

Bacteria feed very fast. The temperature and oxygen saturation and pH of the water passing by the bacteria colony is what determines the effectiveness of the bacteria. When I was doing a fishless cycling of my waters, the bacteria colonies literally droped 3ppm of Ammonia to 0ppm in less than 24 hours. One mission of bio-filters are to remove ammonia. Registering any ammonia, that is not removed completely in less than a week, then there are problems with the filtering or water's ecosystem.

Careful with the oyster shells and high pH water changes. Any pH increase noticeably increases the conversion from safe ammonia to toxic ammonia. Basic ammonia tests combine both safe and toxic ammonia in the same test. So you might be just fine with .3ppm Ammonia on a basic test since 85% of that Ammonia will be safe and your fish will be ok if your pH is around or below ~7.9. Anything above this will increase the conversion of this safe ammonia to be toxic to your fish.

SeaChem makes a liquid drop test if you are curious about how much toxic ammonia (NH3 free ammonia) you have in your water.


And I did wonder about the water changes, at least during this new-pond stage. I kept thinking that if I eliminate all the ammonia, I was defeating the purpose of establishing my bacteria. No wonder my plants are just sorta hanging-in-there.... :)
Be careful with water changes. If your source water's pH is not much higher than your pond, then it'll be ok; otherwise, I would dump in an ammonia binder chemical to stay on the safe side before introducing the high pH source water for a water change.

My understanding is that water changes are only done in reaction to a problem or to reduce particular nutrients that are very tough, sometimes improbable, to remove naturally.

The Ammonia-to-Nitrite bacteria form very quick. The Nitrite-to-Nitrate bacteria are much more fragile; this bacteria is very sensitive to pH, water temperature, and sensitive to light exposure.

BTW, my water has been crystal clear for several weeks. Only had a brief algae bloom during the first week, then had the cola-water for weeks after that. Loving to be able to SEE my fish, and don't want to jinx myself, but can I expect another algae bloom at some point before pond has "cycled?"
Algae is prehistoric and most simple form of aquatic life with one mission to filter water. There are even naturally occuring algae and bacteria species that feed on man made synthetic oils.

Many algae species out there and they all do not require the same nutrients and require them at various levels. Even the people that swear to you they don't have algae, I gaurantee you they have algae if a closer examination was allowed into their water's ecosystem. There are even algae and bacteria species known to survive in ice. All ya can do is try not to disturb the algae you enjoy and do disturb the algae that becomes an eye sore.

Various bacteria species do hibernate and die off in cooler and even very warm temperatures. A change in the bacteria strength and influx of nutrients will open the doors for algae to grow even higher in population to the point where a bloom may occur. This is one reason why deep water is beneficial since the depth can provide insulation to help buffer temperature changes.

Your pond will always be cycling through out the seasons. A pond's ecosystem cycling never ends.

Always going to be a potential algae bloom around the corner. All you can do is try to control the frequency of occurences that become an eye sore.
 

crsublette

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No wonder my plants are just sorta hanging-in-there.... :)
Yeah, took at least 2~3 months before my plants really started to create some noticeable growth. Took about 3 months for my water celery to get huge like it is now, around about 3 by 3 foot lucious green bush with small white flowers; grr, now the celery get'n so big that strong winds lay it down it bit so getting some yarn and rocks to hold it up to keep its nice bushy appearance.
 

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