Lots of water chemistry parameters to change. Where to start...

[max384]

I have several issues that need to be addressed with my water chemistry, but I'd like to make sure that I address them in the proper order. I've had my pond up and running for about a month now. It's about 2000 gallons. I have a 4200 gph bottom drain pump running to a 55 gallon biofilter. I also have a 900 gph pump running the skimmer and a UV filter. I have five 5-6" koi. One 6" shubunkin, and five 1-2" shubunkin, plus a couple dozen trapdoor snails.

I can't seem to get this pond to cycle. Ammonia is reading between 0.5 to 1.0ppm daily. I've been adding ammonia reducer almost daily to drop the ammonia down to between 0 and 0.25ppm. Both nitrite and nitrate have read zero ever since I started this new pond. The pond pH is reading 6.6. Both KH and GH are reading below 50ppm. Tap water is chlorine, not chloramine. I haven't tested the pond chlorine lately, but the ammonia reducer is also chlorine reducer, so I'd be very surprised if it is above zero. My tap water ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are zero. The tap water pH is 6.6. I'm using API master freshwater kit with API GH/KH kit.

So, I've obviously got some issues. I need to get the pond cycled to get ammonia to zero... But I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. Do I let the ammonia build up to establish the bacteria in the filter? But at what cost to the fish? Do I keep lowering the ammonia to save the fish? But at what cost to getting the biofilter started? I also need to correct the pH. However, I don't want to raise the pH until I get the ammonia levels down, since the low pH may be what is keeping the fish healthy with the high ammonia levels. I don't want to mess with the GH or KH until I get the ammonia and pH under control.

I'm feeding the fish Kenzen koi food about three times daily, only as much as they can finish in a couple of minutes. The fish seem lethargic and their appetite has been decreasing. I only started using Kenzen a couple of weeks ago. Before that I was using Tetra. They still eat Tetra quickly. Right after I add the ammonia reducer, the fish start swimming faster and eat better.

What do you guys think?

 

[Dave 54]

When you allow a cycle your looking for a spike in your ammonia and your nitrites until then it wont be cycled may I suggest you keep a close eye on the readings for the next few days and see when it peaks .
Once peaked it will go down to zero soon enough, patience is needed here Max

Dave

 

[dieselplower]

Reduce feeding drastically.

 

[Priscilla]

I had to cut my feedings to once a day. It was hard to do, I loved feeding them so much. I thought they would starve. I went from three times a day, to two. Then down to one.

My pond is about 6 months old now, finally everything as settled down. Over feeding caused some problems for me.

 

[fishin4cars]

How long has this been set up with fish? If it has been less than two months continue checking and watching the ammonia and nitrite closely. If it has been over two months then probably there is a filtration problem. I would not use the ammonia reducer unless it climbs above .75ppm. In fact water changes would be better for the pond and the inhabitants to help reduce the ammonia. If you feeding only once a day or even lightly twice a day and your still getting those kinds of ammonia readings it probably isn't a bad idea to be looking at ways to improve the Biological area of the filter.
Ph, and KH are directly connected. Lower KH the more the PH can drop and fluctuate. The closer you can get the KH to between 80-100 ppm the more stable you make the PH. I use baking soda to help keep my KH in that range. I also use small bags of oyster shell in my filter to add buffer and also help keep the KH from dropping during heavy rains. Using baking soda will bring the PH up to 8.3. So if you don't want to go that high there are other buffering agents that can be used. 8.3 is fine with me as long as it's stable. I do add the baking soda a little each day so not to let the KH or PH climb to quick. again, the more stable the pond the better.
As for which to adjust when. Treat the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate as one thing to work on, the KH, GH, and PH as another. But both can be worked on at the same time. again, small water changes will make small differences in the ammonia, Large ones will make larger differences, but at the same time, large water changes will make bigger differences in the KH and PH if your adjusting as your adding water that hasn't been buffered back to the pond.

 

[LarryM]

I have several issues that need to be addressed with my water chemistry, but I'd like to make sure that I address them in the proper order. I've had my pond up and running for about a month now. It's about 2000 gallons. I have a 4200 gph bottom drain pump running to a 55 gallon biofilter. I also have a 900 gph pump running the skimmer and a UV filter. I have five 5-6" koi. One 6" shubunkin, and five 1-2" shubunkin, plus a couple dozen trapdoor snails.

I can't seem to get this pond to cycle. Ammonia is reading between 0.5 to 1.0ppm daily. I've been adding ammonia reducer almost daily to drop the ammonia down to between 0 and 0.25ppm. Both nitrite and nitrate have read zero ever since I started this new pond. The pond pH is reading 6.6. Both KH and GH are reading below 50ppm. Tap water is chlorine, not chloramine. I haven't tested the pond chlorine lately, but the ammonia reducer is also chlorine reducer, so I'd be very surprised if it is above zero. My tap water ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are zero. The tap water pH is 6.6. I'm using API master freshwater kit with API GH/KH kit.

So, I've obviously got some issues. I need to get the pond cycled to get ammonia to zero... But I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. Do I let the ammonia build up to establish the bacteria in the filter? But at what cost to the fish? Do I keep lowering the ammonia to save the fish? But at what cost to getting the biofilter started? I also need to correct the pH. However, I don't want to raise the pH until I get the ammonia levels down, since the low pH may be what is keeping the fish healthy with the high ammonia levels. I don't want to mess with the GH or KH until I get the ammonia and pH under control.

I'm feeding the fish Kenzen koi food about three times daily, only as much as they can finish in a couple of minutes. The fish seem lethargic and their appetite has been decreasing. I only started using Kenzen a couple of weeks ago. Before that I was using Tetra. They still eat Tetra quickly. Right after I add the ammonia reducer, the fish start swimming faster and eat better.

What do you guys think?

When my filter is cycling, I take an ammonia reading BEFORE any feeding. If any ammonia shows up, I don't feed, but instead will add some bacteria to the pond to help get rid of the unwanted ammonia. I use Microbe-Lift PBL but there are many good bacteria's on the market. Feeding fish when ammonia is present can only make a bad situation worse, maybe even fatal.

 

[max384]

Hey guys, thanks for all of the advice. I've been away and having my girlfriend watch the pond this last week (I know, not ideal... But...). She's been testing the ammonia and it's been at about 0.5-1ppm. Still no nitrites. She's doing 10 percent water changes for me as needed.

I've had fish in the pond for about a month now.

The filter is a 55 gallon drum with this pond filter media. It is cut up into approximately 6"x6" squares.

I'm still not messing with the pH yet. Not until I'm home more. For the next week I'll only be bouncing in and out as I can.

I know I haven't responded in a timely fashion, but I'm reading the replies and taking the advice, so keep it coming! Thanks!

 

[max384]

At a pH of 6.6, how high can I let the ammonia safely peak? Is .75ppm about as high as you guys let it get?

This is quite frustrating since my last pond cycled very quickly, and had a much poorer filtration system than this one does. I figured this one would be just as quick...

 

[Dave 54]

At a pH of 6.6, how high can I let the ammonia safely peak? Is .75ppm about as high as you guys let it get?

This is quite frustrating since my last pond cycled very quickly, and had a much poorer filtration system than this one does. I figured this one would be just as quick...

You need to get your Ph up normally your ammonia should spike along with the nitrite then recede again to zero or near as damn it .
You could buy a product called Lithaqqa to raise your Ph and straighten out your Kh at the same time but it comes with a price tag roughly £39.99 here in the UK have you cut back feeding on the fish ?
It took our pond 2 weeks to cycle and waiting for it went totally against the 22 years indoor koi keeping we had done before hand I will admit to being very worried at the time but my two mentor's said stick with it so I did and as they said the ammobia and nitrite peaked and dropped to zero.
If your that worried you could try small waterchanges and I mean small
The other thing you could use to help take out ammonia would be to buy two sacks of zeolite rocks and two nets put one in your filter along with the lithaqua allowing water to flow though them as part of the filter keeping the other sack of zeolite in reserve ready to change them over every few months placing the used zeolite in a bucket of salt water about a mug or two of salt this releases the ammonia and recharges the rocks ready to change around again as before .

Dave

 

[max384]

What about the fish's health with higher pH? The lower pH means there are more hydrogen ions binding to NH3+, creating more NH4+, which is much less harmful to fish. I know that lower pH offers a protective effect against high ammonia levels, but nobody has touched on this. Am I overemphasizing this? I don't want to blindly raise pH to target levels without first considering ammonia levels...

From all I've read coupled with what I know from my schooling (BS bio, minor chem), raising pH without first addressing ammonia is dangerous. I realize that my knowledge is mainly academic, but nobody has addressed my concern about raising pH in a high(er) ammonia environment.

 

[fishin4cars]

Max, your 100% correct. If your going to adjust don't adjust the PH, SLOWLY adjust the KH and that will slowly raise the PH on it's on. Problem though is if your 6.6 ph your in the acidic range. This means if you test in the morning and again late in the evening that you could get two total different readings. If this is the case then it can be just as dangerous as the ammonia. Small water changes can be used to help keep the ammonia from getting to high. 1.0 is getting a good it on the high side. Most ponds take between 6-8 weeks to cycle, some can go as fast as two weeks but that's really not the norm unless some mature media is added to the filter prior to cycling. Once a pond is cycled does not mean it's stable though. that could take many more months before the whole system reaches a mature balance.

 

[JohnHuff]

Late getting into this thread but from my quick read, here are a couple of comments:
1) Do not use any ammonia reducer. Your bacteria need it.
2) You don't have a high fish load for that pond but how much are you feeding them in amount? A couple of minutes is way long.

I have about the same fish load as you in a 800g pond. I feed mine until they stop eating, which is only about 20 seconds. In 2 minutes, they can eat 3 times that amount. Each time, I'll feed them the equivalent of one thimblefull of food.

3) Lastly, is your 55g drum completely filled with that media? People who know me here know that I don't like static media. And not only that, mechanical filters that masquerades as bio-filters is the worse.

You can either have biofilters or mechanical filters but having one filter that tries to do the job of both is like having a lineman trying to be a safety or a point guard that's trying to be a center.

What you have in your 55g drum is media which is suitable for mechanical filtration not biofiltration. With a pond that big, I'd suggest getting 1 more 55g drum and setting them up like a moving bed reactor. One drum as a settling tank/mechanical filtration and 1 tank with moving media.

 

[max384]

Thanks for the advice! I guess I just got lucky with my last pond, and then expected that with my subsequent ones...

Next week I'll slowly start raising my KH. How high should I let my pH get while the ammonia is still present?

I have a mechanical pre-filter before my main pump. Then I have the mechanical filtration sheets for surface area for the biofilter. Why wouldn't the mechanical filtration media be suitable for biofiltration? Don't I just need surface area?

 

[JohnHuff]

I have a mechanical pre-filter before my main pump. Then I have the mechanical filtration sheets for surface area for the biofilter. Why wouldn't the mechanical filtration media be suitable for biofiltration? Don't I just need surface area?

Surface area is only one factor. A lot of surface area means lots of bacteria. Next you need good water flow to the bacteria and good aeration so the bacteria have raw material and oxygen for conversion because the conversion of ammonia and nitrites needs a lot of oxygen.

Mechanical filters are supposed to do one thing, capture suspended solids. Over time this will decrease water flow as solids are captured, that's why they need to be cleaned periodically. Biolfilters are supposed to allow good water flow. A pure biofilter should never need to be cleaned. By definition a mechanical filter cannot be good biofilter.

That's why Skippys are poor filters. Over time, their scrubbies get clogged and this decreases water flow to the surface areas that need water flow. Besides which they don't have good aeration. A Skippy is essentially a giant porous mechanical filter.

Waste water treatment plants use moving bed reactors because they are the best type of biofilter. Look at this one:

Each of the reactors fulfill the 3 requirements needed for good conversion: lots of media, good water flow and aeration. Essentially, you have lots of bacteria, and you're bringing lots of raw material for them to work on plus the oxygen they need.

It's easy to make moving bed filters and you can make them anyway you want. Here is one made for a tank:

All it needs is the 3 requirements, good surface area, good water flow and good aeration.

 

[max384]

Thanks Dr. Sir John Huff! For this year, the filter media I have will have to stay (unless I can't get the pond cycled). Maybe I'll work on a moving bed filter for next year. This year I'm just tapped out on time and money into this pond. I'm WAY overbudget on both!





I haven't gotten to do much with the pond water quality. I've been away for the past two weeks, only popping in occasionally, and I don't want to make any water chemistry changes while I'm not there to continually monitor the water. I've cut down on the feedings (well, the person watching my pond is cutting back) while I've been away, and left my garden hose on a very slow drip to continuously change the water. The water company will be happy with their profits this month! lol. This has kept the ammonia levels to around 0.5. Not ideal, but better... I've kept an eye on chlorine, and it's been zero with this slow drip.