Koi deaths,flashing and ulcer on goldfish

[Tiger1]

I've had 3 deaths in 3 days...5 1/2" koi, 7" koi and a Molly. All their body and scales look clean. No sores or anything. But last night I found a gold fish with an ulcer and red streaks in fins.
A lot of other koi are flashing. From what I've been reading, seems like parasite. Guy who sold me koi told me to use malachite green crystals. 1/4 tsp per 1000 gal. I have 4000 gal. I've done that for 2 days. I don't know why he didn't recommend malachite gr with the formalin as that all I see recommended I'm my research. So last treatment, I did w gr and formalin. From what I read, there are 3 possible parasite categories and treatment. 1) parasites that malachite green and formalin kill 2) fluke which prazi kills 3) anchor worm and lice which express IDI kill. Should I do at least another gr+formalin treatment after a water change? Or is 2 gr and 1 gr+formalin enough to rule out first group of parasites. Last treatment was last night and many fish are still flashing. Then when should I treat for fluke? Btw, how do you know which parasite to treat for? Is it just a guessing game? I know the last category is visible. Am I going in the right direction? Please help with what I should do now. I don't want to lose anymore fish. And PLEASE talk to me like I'm an 8 year old. I've read a lot about the hobby, but I am so very new to it. I want to understand everything and do this right.

 

[sissy]

There gills are really red .How is the oxygen in the pond and I did read awhile after you treat a pond you are supposed to do a water change .I was told it lowers the oxygen in a pond by the koi breeder where I got my koi .He gave me all the stuff when I bought my koi 11 years ago and gave me a hand written paper of what to do when I first put them in the pond .How to treat the water and how to keep water fresh and oxygenated .

 

[Tiger1]

I thought his gills were pretty red too. That's why I took a pic. But I'm sure I have plenty if oxygen. I have a waterfall and 5 features that spill back into pond. One other goldfish with same colorations have red gills but all other fish look ok in that department. I'm pretty sure it's parasites and really need to know where to go from here. Going to do a water change before any other treatment.

 

[sissy]

Do you know the temps of the water and how deep is your pond .Are there any built up stuff on the bottom adding to the problem .Have there been any changes and what kind of filter and is it big enough and have you tested your water with a test kit .Have you added any fish or plants .

 

[sissy]

I add quilt batting in a crate to really over filter the pond .The gunk I picked up when I rebuilt my filter and waterfall
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[Tiger1]

My pond was built in June July of this year, so yes, I have added all fish and plants from everywhere since then. All is new. I have tons of filtration. 3000 Gph Skippy waterfall with a prefilter. 2 20 gallon barrels set up as skippy, 55 gal moving bed, and almost 200 gallon external bog full of plants. All filters have prefilter. Filters are not my problem. Pond is 4 ft deep. I live in Tampa, FL and we are still getting temps in the mid 80s. Had a couple "cold fronts" that gave us a couple days in the 60s. So I doubt it is the temps. My water readings were 0 ammo, 0 nitrite, and about 5 nitrate. Ph 8. Water seems perfect. Nothing at bottom of pond except a few rock crumbs from when pond was being built. Im sure I brought something in with fish or plants! What I want to know is.........Do my symptoms look like parasites and what do I need to do now? If it doesn't look like parasites, then what else does it look like? Did malachite gr crystals for 2 days,and malachite gr and formalin treatment yesterday. Should I do another gr+formalin? Should I do a prazi treatment. Performing a 25% water change right now as I type this. Need to know! Don't want to lose another fish. Fish are still flashing.

P.S
I love using quilt batting in my prefilters. They fill up fast but it removes a lot.

 

[sissy]

I clean all my plants well and then repot and all fish get checked first .Plants will bring in the worst of the worst .I never put a plant in my pond until a 2 weeks after I get it .Being a new pond and do you treat your water if it is city water .To me and I am no expert by far but I have not lost a fish since the start of my pond 11 years ago ,It just looks like a lack of oxygen because of the gills .

 

[Tula]

I don't own a microscope, but I've read where it's important to scrape and scope your fish…it's the only definitive diagnosis for what type of parasite you should treat for. Could you borrow a scope from someone?

Very sorry for your loss. Kim

 

[Tiger1]

Yes I treat my water before I add it. I have bubbles everywhere in my pond. Waterfall, 5 features spill back into pond. Waterfall, moving bed, and one of the 20 gallon barrels also have air pushing through with venturis. I don't have access to a microscope, so that is not an option. Anybody know a good protocol for treating for parasites? As flashing and ulcer lead me to believe that that is my problem.

 

[Dave 54]

Tiger first I will ask you what your water perameters are i;e Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Ph, Gh, Kh .
Next wrong call your problem isnt parasite its bacterial.
Why becase fish dont come down with ulcers if your water is heathy.
A number of factors can cause your fish to suffer ulcers like this such as stress, overcrowding fluctuations in temperature etc .
The problem you have sounds like its a bacterial one i;e an Aeromonas infection and you'll need to treat with a good bacteriacide but it has to be caught in its early stages as advanced infections can become very difficult for you to treat.
You should first take a swab to be sent off to a vet to identify the strain of bacteria we are dealing with, this is vital.
Anti bacterial drugs are available from him depending on how far the outbreak has gottenhowever if caught early an over the counter bacteriacide may well do the trick.
All ponds have bacteria in them, normally this is no problem the most common of these being Aeromonas hydrophilia, Areomonas salmonicida and Flavobacterium Columnare this is why it is vital to identify which strain we are dealing with here.
The symptoms of this being exessive mucus building up on your fishes body, reas of reddening on the body leading a raising of the scales leading to ulcers.
Dropsy may well develope and popeye too, as well as internal problems an internal examination(autopsy) may well inicate haemorrhagic septicaemia.
For treatment of this problem
Weve been keeping koi for 26 years now maintenance of your filters along with regular waterchanges etc normally keep these bacteria check.
It's now coming into winter propper you should have made sure that everything is ready i;e remove all detritus from the bottom of the pond , you should have made sure your filter was cleaned prior, we even carry on throughout the winter doing water changes using what is know as the trickle method were water is slowly trickled in by hose.
If done correctly you shouldn't loose anything much in temperature say .1 o .2c because the heat retained within your pond will have the effect of warming your new water slighly.
We wish you luck but remember in future what you do or dont do with your pond reflects on the health of your fish waterchanges routinely done are good as is maintennce of your system.
Also strict quarentine proceedurs should be in place when ading new fish to your pond.
Please if in doubt ask .....
Last but not least I always recomend you buy books about the health aspects of our hobby and learn these by heart.
If this is done you will have trouble free fish keeping.
I have posted a thread of ll the books we have in our koi/fish health library with authors Title of Book and those all important ISBN numbers.:-

https://www.gardenpondforum.com/topic/10498-our-fishkoi-health-library-with-reviews-of-each-book/

Koi if you didnt already know if looked after correctly will live upwards of 80 years and goldfish 40 years, study and I promise you that you cant go wrong in this hobby , its not rocket science, its just plain common scense.
Remember not all you read on the internet is true hence our library, people who dont bother to do the research loose fish after fish which is sad , you dont look after cats or dogs without first learning about the issues that beset them do you.

Dave

 

[Mmathis]

Have you tested your water for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, pH?

 

[Tiger1]

Ammo-0, nitrite-0, nitrate-5, ph. I've been playing phone tag with some aquatic lab in my area. I was also referred to a guy who deals with ponds for a living. He said that there has been an protozoan outbreak in our area in the last 40 days. In old ponds and new. I told him that I've been using the malachite gr. He recommended tetra pond fish treatment. Not sure why. Everything I've read says mal gr+form was best treatment. Bacteria infection is usually secondary to something, so I have to start there. Most fish do seem to be doing better after the gr treatments. A couple still flashing and one still lazy. I will see if lab guy can help me tomorrow.

 

[Mmathis]

Ammo-0, nitrite-0, nitrate-5, ph. I've been playing phone tag with some aquatic lab in my area. I was also referred to a guy who deals with ponds for a living. He said that there has been an protozoan outbreak in our area in the last 40 days. In old ponds and new. I told him that I've been using the malachite gr. He recommended tetra pond fish treatment. Not sure why. Everything I've read says mal gr+form was best treatment. Bacteria infection is usually secondary to something, so I have to start there. Most fish do seem to be doing better after the gr treatments. A couple still flashing and one still lazy. I will see if lab guy can help me tomorrow.

I realized after Imposted that you'd already given this info (water parameters). Hope you get it figured out soon! I would be devastated!

 

[Dave 54]

The guy may well be right Tiger but normally ulcers come about as I have said howver I totally agree lets see what the lab people say because finding out the answer can sometimes be a bit of a detective hunt in tracking down the culprit.
However in 26 years coming across this more than three times in peoples pond weve diagnosed it correctly each time.
Just so you are aware of this we came across a treatment used by the Japanese that we describe as the Holy Grail of ulcer treatments.
However I doubt whether the customs your end would allow it through but you could only try,the down side to this treatment however means when not in use it has to live in your fridge ;-

http://www.koicarp.org.uk/Koi Clear Gel Doc.doc

This one little tub works out at £25 UK it may seem expensive however it will treat up to 50 koi out of just one tub .
At the same time you have to track down what it is that is causing your problem your infected koi also have to be put in QT.
My only ulcer came about on the swop over from 200 imerial gallon indoor koi tank to outide pond.
We applied this treatment once and it cured the ulcer in one (it normally takes two aplications).
I was even able to show and win with this showa a month later and win first placing with it at or annual koi show.

Dave

 

[bettasngoldfish]

fish with healthy gills are normally bright red in color.

Here is some good info for you to sort thru. Hopefully you can find something that will help

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/disease.htm