How would I retrofit a "standpipe drain" for my small pond?

[crsublette]

I have a rough idea of how a "standpipe drain" operates. In my head, I am thinking it is just an open piece of pvc with a mesh and, when any water goes up above this pvc, then it will go down the pipe kind of like the overflow drain in a bathroom sink.

How would I get proper suction so that the water that goes into the pipe will drain out ??

If I have that "gooseneck sink assemblies", would this create just enough suction for the water to drain out of the other side ??

My pond's parameter berms are about 4 inches high and the pond's actually water level is 10 inches below the top of the berm.

I was watching Dr. Johnson's trickle water change system and he mentioned that a standpipe drain would work, but I am not sure how to implement one.

I'm currently searching the Google with no success just yet. Found a couple descriptions but they have lacked thorough explanations for me to understand how exactly they were doing it.

 

[crsublette]

I am thinking of how I could do this inside my small skimmer. I could put a 1/2 " vertical pvc pipe. Have this only a couple inches down in the skimmer then use something to create a natural sunction to come out of the side of the skimmer. Side of the skimmer I could drill a hole for the drain pipe. Seal the seams so that there are not any leaks between the pipe and the skimmer.

Is it possible to create a natural sunction to accomplish this? would using that sink goose neck plumbing thing on the outside of the skimmer create the sunction? Or use my aerator looped in somehow to cause this sunction?

My knowledge of this kind of plumbing is non-existant. This possible or not possible without a very small sump pump on the other end?

I don't know. looks like I might have to use a small aquarium sump pump

 

[crsublette]

Well, found an interesting bit ... Aquarium DIY Plans Database - Overflows & Standpipes

Also found another good illustration, Aquarium automatic water change system

Grr, except they all use some type of pump.

I suppose I would not need a pump if the drainage is on a good enough down slope with some underground piping, but I do not have any low spot around me to dump this drainage.

It seems an automatic sump pump will be unavoidable for me since I do not have an appropriate down slope and I want the drainage water dumped far enough away so that it does not stay near my pond, that could possibly waterlog the soil resulting in some settling.


Welp, I think I am going to put the standpipe inside my small skimmer. The standpipe will be on the pump side of the skimmer so that the skimmer filters will block any debris from entering the stand pipe. Then, drill a hole in the skimmer wall for a bulkhead pvc pipe connector and seal it just to make sure water does not leak past the bulkhead rubber washers. Then, I will have this pipe dump into a 2 foot deep pond lined hole where the automatic sump pump will reside; 2 feet deep to prevent the pump from freezing if I keep it in there during winter. Then, I will have a spinkler irrigation box to cover the hole with a rope so I can easily pull out the sump pump, and the box will be bigger than the holes width/length so that it is impossible for it to fall in when someone stands on it. Hmm, or might put in a 4 or 6 inch wide pvc pipe (width dependent on width of sump pump) down there as its walls for stability.


Well, lol. I hope this helps anyone that has been wondering the same thing.

I do believe that is going to be my plan.

Give a yell if ya got some suggestions on how to better do this. Will be a couple weeks till I start to do it.

 

[Waterbug]

I'm not sure what the goal is but it sounded like maybe "bell valve" would be something you'd be interested in?

 

[crsublette]

I am going to put Dr. Johnson's trickle water change system into place and I do not want to fill the pond up to the point where it will naturally overflow. For it to naturally overflow, an extra 150 or so gallons would have to be added. For appearance sake, I like it when it is at the 450ish gallon mark. So, to keep it from naturally overflowing, I am thinking of a standpipe drain.

To be more precise, the thread title should've been for a "standpipe overflow drain".

Thanks, I'll look into the "bell valve".

 

[crsublette]

I looked at the bell valve. If I am correctly reading, then the bell valve acts like a typical siphon by moving water from a higher container to a lower container until the siphon is broken. Problem with this is when my lower container fills up then the siphon breaks. I really don't have a down slope anywhere, everything is quite flat here. Correct me if I am wrong here. Would be nice if able to do this without sub-pump.


Since I don't know how to do this without a sub-pump yet, then I'm thinking of putting very small pump, something like 3.5gpm submersible pump in the 6" pvc tube, the tube will sit inside a 24" deep hole lined with pond liner, and a 5~8" circular irrigation valve box on top of the 6" pvc tube as a lid. Volume of a sphere that is a 6" diameter pvc tube and 2 feet deep is ~2.9 gallons of water so the 3.5gpm sub pump will dump it in about 50 seconds (not too fast, not too slow). Then, I can put a backflow valve where I connect the 1/4" tubing to a 1/2" garden hose; the backflow from what is inside the 1/4" tubing won't be much, around ~2.6 ounces. Also, the 3.5gpm submersible pump has a 10 foot max head height so it will be able to push the water through 80 feet of garden hose until very little water comes out at the end assuming flat ground all the way. I am figuring laying this hose next to a tree to water it while the trickle water change system does its thing.

In case of a heavy 4 inch rain, which is very rare in my area, then this would add ~225 gallons to my 90 square foot area and it would take the 3.5gpm sub pump a little over an hour to prevent my "pond" from overflowing. Well, likely sooner than a hour since actually takes some time for 4 inches of rain to fall.

The 3.5 sub pump is 115v, 60hz, and 1.1amps so should be ok to used with a couple of floater valves. The floater valves will automatically turn off the pump so it does not run dry and another floater to turn on the pump when the water reaches the level of the standpipe in the skimmer.

Grrr, now I have no idea how to do the floater valves without electrocuting myself, lol. Maybe there are some aquarium valve setup that I can re-purpose for what I am trying to do. Looks like Blue Line Pump Saver is almost what I want but the point between "pump off" and "pump restart" is too close together; I am looking for something I can space out to more like 18" to 24" tall to restart the pump (where my standpipe water level is) and around 5" on the bottom to turn off the pump (since the sub pump is a little over 4" tall).

 

[Waterbug]

I still may not be following...but it sounds like your pond water level is 6" (10" below 4" berm) below grade and you have have a dead flat yard. And what you want is an overflow in the pond that works without a pump?

If that's right...

Yeah, there is no automatic non pump way to move water uphill based on siphon. Siphons will move water up hill but only inside the pipe, the emptying end still needs to be lower.

You can run the stand pipe below grade all the way to the tree, or wherever. The issue is of course the pipe opening would still be below grade. For regular trickle changes that might be OK since what comes out of the pipe would be the same drip. And if you ran some feeder pipes around the tree with drilled holes so much the better.

https://www.gardenpondforum.com/gallery/image/1819-overflow/



To me the case of a down pour is the same problem whether or not trickle fill is used. And could be a real problem for liner floating with your pond level below grade. You could create a lower level in your yard by scraping down 6". That would give overflow a place to go without a pump.

 

[crsublette]

Thanks waterbug, good stuff.

My water reservoir is not really below grade on the northeast part of it. This is where my natural overflow is located. The grade on the overflow end is only about .5~1" lower. However, for aesthetics, I really do not want to add ~150 gals for the reservoir to reach the overflow. From here on though, my yard is still quite flat, and since I have been moving in crushed limestone to do some xericscaping, I may have inadvertently created some hills.

However, as ya mentioned, I can take some dirt from underneath that northeast side so that I do not have to add the extra gallons for it to overflow. Then, I could do as your diagram describes. I would also have to dig so to keep the pipe at the proper grade when it comes out next to my tree.

Interesting, gives me something to think about.

(( In regards to the floating liner, I have seen what you are talking about, but I have about 2 tons of rock on my liner so I am not too worried about a floating liner. ))

 

[crsublette]

Yeah, I really do not want to saturate the ground around my water reservoir. Regardless of how well I have packed the structure, there is always going to be some degree of settling. So, I want to do my best to reduce this possibility regardless of however small of the reduction. This is also the reason why I have put down garden matting and limestone around my water structure; if I do get a torrential rain or a bad overflow occurs from my reservoir, then the excess water will just run off instead of saturating the soil.

From overflowing my reservoir in the past, there is an extremely slight soil level degradation where the puddles would start to form a good 10 feet away from my reservoir and then eventually flowing to the northeast away from the stream and reservoir.

Instead of having a permanent location, like the siphon outflow, I think I may want to go with the sub-pump so that the outflow can be placed anywhere within ~70 feet of the stand-pipe. The sub-pump mentioned has a 10 foot head height.

I apologize for thinking, or writing, my thoughts out loud like this, but if it has helped, then bonus and, if not, then I hope no harm done.

Hmmm, after more thinking, I like the idea of being able to move my outflow wherever without worrying about slight level gradation changes; well, within the scope of my sub-pump head height limitation.

Waterbug, thanks, I appreciate ya; ya gave me something that further refined my thinking about all this.

Is there a float valve setup that would match my application??

Been searching online for a while and I need to get back to farming. I am afraid Mother Nature is going to kick my arse soon.

 

[Waterbug]

I'm still not really following you...your yard is dead flat but "water reservoir is not really below grade on the northeast part of it". Sometimes it sounds like you have slope, sometimes not. And when you ""water reservoir" are you talking about a pond will a liner? I remember in Texas people often called mud bottom ponds "reservoirs" or "tanks".

Anyways, sounds like an interesting problem but I just can't understand the parameters.

On the floating liner...in another thread recently I did the calculations for the amount of rock needed to keep a liner from floating and it's large amount. If memory serves for a 10'x10' and 3' deep, water line 12" below grade I think the number was a bit over 3 tons of mortared rock and I think the mortar was important. Of course the most important factor was the soil, you need clay for a liner to float in most cases.

 

[crsublette]

I never said "dead flat". Never got scientific in assessing the gradation of my yard. From over flowing my pond in the past, I can tell ya it does go away "a bit"; in otherwords, water puddles are not next to the berms and the puddls just do not run off either so it is "quite flat", just not "dead flat". I thnk you're right about the folk calling mud bottom ponds as "reservoirs", but I was using the term as "a cavity which holds fluid". Sorry, I can not bring my self to calling my setup to be a pond anymore since it never began as a pond; it would be like me calling my big stock or aquarium tank or big fountain as a pond. I don't know, lol. The resevoir (yep, pond liner was used) to my water feature is just 9.5' wide x 9.5' long x 1' deep; seems like 2 feet extra in depth would make a huge difference in rock volume. Don't know what ya need to know if ya don't ask me; anyways, I think I am beyond this now.

Vertical, thin, submersible floater valve switches that I can put in the 6" pvc tube. Looks like I might be able to repurpose an aquarium "auto top off" system, one that does not loop through a control panel. Hmmm, still looking.

 

[crsublette]

Excellent !!!

HydroCheck Electronic Float Switches - Uses 2 separate sensors that can be placed quite far from each other so I can set them where I want. Each sensor is quite skinny and vertical. Uses a 120 VAC outlet. 14 amp maximum current. Only concern is that it is for indoor use only; I think I am going to have to build a small box around the outlet to protect it from the outdoor elements.

I bet I actually could just put these switches into my skimmer and have the sub-pump somewhere in the water reservoir or use an external pump; so i will not need the standpipe and rest of it. when water gets "x" inches high in skimmer, then drain ; when water gets "x" inches low in skimmer, then stop draining. The water behind the filters in the skimmer is extremely calm so this seems to be the best place for the sensors.

When the drip system water fills up my reservoir "x" inches high, then the pump will turn on, and then turns off when proper amount of water is drained.

If I rig this properly, then this would also automate water changes during the Winter and Summer. If I need "x" % water change, then just change the drip emitter's flow rate by switching out emitters with a higher or lower flow rate.

Not much of a DIY ... Oh well :razz:

And, I suck at making thread topics. I suppose I should have named the title of this thread "drain system for trickle water change system". lol, oh well

 

[Waterbug]

I never said "dead flat". Never got scientific in assessing the gradation of my yard.

"Dead flat" was what I thought you were saying...but apparently that is wrong and there is some slope. I think if you want to not use a pump you would have to become "scientific in assessing the gradation". We're only talking about a couple of inches so I would hope you weren't so unlucky that the pond is the lowest point.

If you do want a pump I suggest using a sewage float switch. They'll last and are reliable.

 

[addy1]

crsublette
On one of my ponds I had an electric switch to control water input. My late hubby installed it. It did work great, only problem he did not do it quite right. I got tingled one day, current seepage, yanked the sucker......lol

 

[crsublette]

Aaahh, addy, I'd do the same thing. I hate electricity. Ya can't see it until it is too late. I'm even paranoid with volt meters. My farm sprinklers and some wells use 420 volts and freaks me out everytime I have to check the amps and volts in the panel. I got dinged once when hooking up a 420 volt generator to a sprinkler; said to myself, "oh hell no" and called an electrician buddy to hook it up. I felt that tingle in me for the rest of the day. Lol.

This is the reason I will never put together switches. I am reading on these aquarium forums building their own switches. I say "hell no", not this guy, hahah