How can aerobic (good) bacteria live in a bottle?

[Mucky_Waters]

I know people often say they bought a bottle of bacteria to add to their pond to seed their bio-filter, but that type of bacteria that we want growing in our bio-filter needs oxygen to survive, so can somebody explain to me how aerobic bacteria can be sealed in an air tight, oxygen free (anaerobic) environment (eg; a bottle) and survive?
My experience tells me that if you take some active bio-media from a functioning bio-filter and put it in an airtight container or bag, it will quickly turn septic and anaerobic (bad) bacteria will take over and consume the aerobic (good) bacteria.
Please, somebody, explain to me where my logic is failed.

 

[Troutredds]

I just googled "bacteria in a bottle" and suffice it to say, there is no consensus of opinion on this one. Great topic, Mucky. I'll withhold my opinion for now but look forward to other's opinions. This is fertile ground for some spirited debate.

 

[ZmanArt007]

Maybe the companies that sell sealed aerobic bacteria somehow force the bacteria into dormancy? That's my guess, otherwise perhaps you are correct and they are all dead

 

[Lisak1]

Here's an answer I found to that question:

"Humans need oxygen and food to survive. Nitrifying bacteria need oxygen and food to reproduce. There is a difference."

If you want to read the whole explanation, it's here:

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/nitrifying-bacteria-arent-human

I realize this is a commercial site that makes money selling bacteria in a bottle, but his explanation made sense to me! (Not a chemist, biologist or scientist. Just a simpleton with a curious mind!)

 

[JohnHuff]

WB posted about this a long time ago. (Where is he, btw?) The stuff in the bottle is merely medium for the bacteria. A simple way to check it would be to buy a bottle and culture it. If it cultures, then it's bacteria. From what I learned in school, most bacteria doesn't live long outside their environment, they're not spores. If you think about it, they're simply soft celled walled organisms. Irony is that if it's good bacteria for your pond, they're weaklings that will die if you look at them wrong, if it's sickness bacteria, you need to subject it a high pressure steam heat it at 150C for 20 mins. Just why can't pond bacteria be strong and sickness bacteria be like pond bacteria?

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I've read that Dr. Tim's info on his bacteria in a bottle, and most of their information seems to make sense, but they leave out some relevant information. They state that they have figured out a way to keep bacteria dormant. Thing is nobody needed to figure that out, most bacteria have always been able to go dormant in conditions that are not suitable for growth. In fact it's the exact reason you don't ever need to buy bacteria in a bottle in the first place, because there are already so many dormant bacteria everywhere that adding a little bottle of bacteria to your pond is like pissing in the ocean.
If there was a trick to bottling bacteria it would be to find a way to completely kill off all the other unwanted (anaerobic) bacteria and just have the bacteria you want in there, because therein lies the problem. The moment you seal that bottle the aerobic (good) bacteria wants to go into dormancy ( or die) for lack of oxygen, and the anaerobic suddenly has an ideal environment to grow. As stated in my first post, it's an easy experiment you can try at home yourself.
The only way to kill off the bacteria you don't want would be to sterilize, or pasteurize the contents of the bottle, but that would also kill the good bacteria.
So if they do somehow get some dormant residual bacteria in the bottle too, that's no great feat. It takes more effort to eliminate bacteria from a bottle then it does to get them in there. Which leads to the next point. They are not really false advertising, there surely is some dormant bacteria in those bottles, the question is when you pour the contents of that bottle into your pond are you really making any significant contribution to the already existing dormant bacteria already in your pond?
Perhaps, if your were setting up a small indoor aquarium, and all your equipment was completely new and sterile, and your water came from a chlorinated source, a small bottle containing some dormant bacteria might have some measurable effect in speeding up the cycling process, but in an outside environment, in a pond size body of water. No way. In either case you'd be better off throwing in a handful of (free) dirt, at least the bacteria in the dirt would be active and not dormant.

The only real way to speed up the process and get a significant amount of "active" bacteria in your pond (faster then it would normally activate), would be to transport a significant volume of active bio-media from another (active) source, like another bio-filter.
As john says, most of these "bacteria booster" products sold are simply prepared nutrients (eg; ammonia, nitrites) for the good bacteria (already existing in your pond), and they actually make more sense, but again, they are generally not necessary as there are other, cheaper, ways to provide nutrients for the bacteria already existing in your pond.
Everybody knows there are all kinds of gimmicks being sold out there, these bottled bacteria products are just that. They sound good, but if you understand how these bacteria live and die (or go dormant), and just how prolific they really are, you'll realize that the idea trying to buy them in a bottle off a shelf just doesn't make sense.
Maybe I shouldn't try so hard to fight them. Maybe I should join em. Maybe I'll set up a web site and I'll say how I perfected a way you can download pond bacteria from a link on my web site for only $5. After all, everybody knows viruses can be downloaded, why not bacteria? Hmm?

 

[Troutredds]

I've read that Dr. Tim's info on his bacteria in a bottle, and most of their information seems to make sense, but they leave out some relevant information. They state that they have figured out a way to keep bacteria dormant. Thing is nobody needed to figure that out, most bacteria have always been able to go dormant in conditions that are not suitable for growth. In fact it's the exact reason you don't ever need to buy bacteria in a bottle in the first place, because there are already so many dormant bacteria everywhere that adding a little bottle of bacteria to your pond is like pissing in the ocean.
If there was a trick to bottling bacteria it would be to find a way to completely kill off all the other unwanted (anaerobic) bacteria and just have the bacteria you want in there, because therein lies the problem. The moment you seal that bottle the aerobic (good) bacteria wants to go into dormancy ( or die) for lack of oxygen, and the anaerobic suddenly has an ideal environment to grow. As stated in my first post, it's an easy experiment you can try at home yourself.
The only way to kill off the bacteria you don't want would be to sterilize, or pasteurize the contents of the bottle, but that would also kill the good bacteria.
So if they do somehow get some dormant residual bacteria in the bottle too, that's no great feat. It takes more effort to eliminate bacteria from a bottle then it does to get them in there. Which leads to the next point. They are not really false advertising, there surely is some dormant bacteria in those bottles, the question is when you pour the contents of that bottle into your pond are you really making any significant contribution to the already existing dormant bacteria already in your pond?
Perhaps, if your were setting up a small indoor aquarium, and all your equipment was completely new and sterile, and your water came from a chlorinated source, a small bottle containing some dormant bacteria might have some measurable effect in speeding up the cycling process, but in an outside environment, in a pond size body of water. No way. In either case you'd be better off throwing in a handful of (free) dirt, at least the bacteria in the dirt would be active and not dormant.

The only real way to speed up the process and get a significant amount of "active" bacteria in your pond (faster then it would normally activate), would be to transport a significant volume of active bio-media from another (active) source, like another bio-filter.
As john says, most of these "bacteria booster" products sold are simply prepared nutrients (eg; ammonia, nitrites) for the good bacteria (already existing in your pond), and they actually make more sense, but again, they are generally not necessary as there are other, cheaper, ways to provide nutrients for the bacteria already existing in your pond.
Everybody knows there are all kinds of gimmicks being sold out there, these bottled bacteria products are just that. They sound good, but if you understand how these bacteria live and die (or go dormant), and just how prolific they really are, you'll realize that the idea trying to buy them in a bottle off a shelf just doesn't make sense.
Maybe I shouldn't try so hard to fight them. Maybe I should join em. Maybe I'll set up a web site and I'll say how I perfected a way you can download pond bacteria from a link on my web site for only $5. After all, everybody knows viruses can be downloaded, why not bacteria? Hmm?

Brilliant! Preach on Brother Mucky. You logically question the status quo that others blindly follow. I don't use the stuff either. The very notion of "kickstarting" a pond's biological cycle with some free-floating snake oil - in an outdoor environment where, as you say, you're better off throwing in dirt, leaves me scratching my head. To quote a famous American promoter of hype, "There's a sucker born every minute."

 

[Dave 54]

Microbe_lift is our bacteria in a botle of choice we swear by it they have had years of experiance with bacteria from swerage to fish ponds .

Dave

 

[Troutredds]

Microbe_lift is our bacteria in a botle of choice we swear by it they have had years of experiance with bacteria from swerage to fish ponds .

Dave

I may try that, John. I went to their website and they say their product contains a photosynthetic bacteria culture to break down waste, not simply an aerobic bacteria culture. It's the claim of an aerobic culture somehow surviving an anaerobic environment (an air tight container) that I can't wrap my mind around.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Microbe_lift is our bacteria in a botle of choice we swear by it they have had years of experiance with bacteria from swerage to fish ponds .

Dave

Hi Dave
Since we are making confessions here now, I will admit to buying a package of commercially available (enzymes) for my septic system once. I bought it one time after I had my first septic tank drained and someone recommended I buy this stuff to activate the waste in my new septic system sludge. At the time I felt like I was doing something good for my my septic system and it certainly seemed to have "worked" as I never had any problems with that system afterwards. If that was my only experience with septic systems I suppose I might have recommended that enzyme to others wishing restart their septic systems.
Thing is I have since had quite a few septic tanks drained, in various places, and even started a few brand new systems, and never used any of those packaged enzymes again, and they all seem to have "worked" just as well too.
I can't say the packaged enzymes I used did any harm because the septic system seemed to function properly after using it, so in that respect I guess I could say it "worked". However, I can't ignore the fact that the other septic systems that never had the addition of any supplemental enzymes all seem to have worked also.
It would be extremely hard to tell if one system started working faster or better then the other without doing precise testing and analyzing of the tank contents and drain field effluent, for some time after, and of course in order not to skew the results you'd have to make sure you had the exact type and quality of in-fluent entering the system with the exact PH, ammonia, nitrate levels and the exact temperatures, and so on. All that would seem like a lot of unnecessary work, and for me it's enough to know, and quite comforting really, to safely come to the undeniable conclusion that the added enzymes are not really needed.

 

[Shdwdrgn]

I realize this is a commercial site that makes money selling bacteria in a bottle, but his explanation made sense to me! (Not a chemist, biologist or scientist. Just a simpleton with a curious mind!)

If you visit any number of websites on perpetual motion or alternative vehicle fuels, you will find pages of documents with very detailed explantations that always appear to make sense -- because the author happens to leave out or mis-interpret a few key items. I could tell you that I put oatmeal in my car's radiator and suddenly got better gas mileage. then make claims that the oil industry is hiding this amazing superfuel from the world. What I didn't tell you was that I had a leak in my radiator, and by plugging that leak my engine ran cooler. Yes I did get better gas mileage, but that doesn't mean that oatmeal is a superfuel.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

WB posted about this a long time ago. (Where is he, btw?)

I found him http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/ponds/msg0613005022283.html?53

You'll find him here in this thread too. http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/ponds/msg0709183823247.html?18&rnd=tjMpK

 

[JohnHuff]

I found him http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/ponds/msg0613005022283.html?53

You'll find him here in this thread too. http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/ponds/msg0709183823247.html?18&rnd=tjMpK

Funny, the last thread ended in an argument, much like here... I think WB needs to develop a thicker skin. It's true that misinformation is given out, but that's everywhere and any subject. People who are really interested learn what's correct and what isn't over time, just like anything else.

 

[JohnHuff]

OMG. I just read an article over there by a guy whose advice for getting clear water was to scrub his pond clean, add "bacteria" and rocks. The worse advice ever and no one countered it, even WB. SMH.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Funny, the last thread ended in an argument, much like here... I think WB needs to develop a thicker skin. It's true that misinformation is given out, but that's everywhere and any subject. People who are really interested learn what's correct and what isn't over time, just like anything else.

Yes, WB is a character alright. If he didn't have such a tenacity to get on the wrong side of everybody he'd really be an interesting person to discuss things with. He has a lot of good ideas, and I find I can agree with 99% of the things I've heard him say,,, but don't question him on that 1% or suddenly you'll become a passive aggressive flame starter. LOL

As for that GardenWeb Forum, I use to post in that forum regularly and there use to be some really entertaining members there. One fellow I fondly remember use to post there that went by the forum name Semper-Fi (I think he was an ex marine), one time he made and posted a Flash video memorial for me when my runt turtle (PeeWee) passed away. The video had music and a little slide show of pictures of my turtle. I was dumbfounded he had somehow accumulated so many pictures of my turtle, and touched that he put together such a sweet little memorial video, I'm not ashamed to say it actually brought a tear to my eye watching it.
Had some good times there, but things changed and people moved on. The quality of the posts dropped dramatically, and I stopped even bother to open the page anymore when, like you, I encountered, someone who posted something utterly ridiculous and it went totally unchallenged, and I just couldn't take it anymore. I think it was when one of the long time members there posted something about how you should never ever touch your pond water with your bare hands, and if you did somehow get pond water on your bare skin you should immediately go wash it off.