Honeylocust roots. Pond dream killed? Raised pond?

[Lardeelion]

I've been asking for your help for a few weeks on my new pond project. I took your advice and changed the location, got all excited, and now I realize I'm likely to encounter some serious roots if I dig. Important roots, not annoying roots. I could get lucky and miss them. It's a roll of the dice I'm not sure I should take.

The proposed pond spot is about 10 feet from a beautiful old 70-foot honeylocust, one of two planted by my great-great-grandfather which lightly shade my house. I value the trees more than a pond, and my father would disown me if I damaged them. (Not to mention a lifetime of being haunted by tree-loving ancestors.) I do have a call in to the extension office to ask about honeylocust roots, but I'm doubtful now. I could move the pond spot, but the roots go *everywhere*. (And yeah, I know, a pond in the trees is a very time-consuming thing.) The pond was to be 24 inches deep.

My husband favors the idea of a raised pond. But, I know nothing about building. My husband can't even carry a ladder up the stairs without damaging the walls. Our budget doesn't include hiring a brick guy. I'm not opposed to watching YouTube until I learn brickery (brick work?), but I don't know how to calculate wall strength. There's also the old standby, the preformed pond, small though they be.

If my excavating guy was talented, he might be able to wing it around any roots we found. After all these decades I suspect the new root growth would be far, far away from the tree trunk.

Does anybody have any suggestions, either about roots or digging or raised ponds? I really feel like the wind has been taken out of my sails, here. And it's snowing buckets to boot.

You folks have been mighty helpful, so thanks.
Laura

 

[Lardeelion]

Following in the "dig around the root" vein....is this possible, assuming I still have adequate circulation and also assuming the root doesn't have babies coming in every direction that will invade?

 

[Lisak1]

I've done a bit of research on this myself - not specifically the honey locust, but tree roots in general. Basically I've learned that trees have an extensive root system for a reason - if one area is damaged, the tree will continue to draw from the rest of the system and will survive. I've also learned that cutting some roots on a tree can actually be beneficial - the cutting stimulates the tree to produce more roots which can rejuvenate a struggling tree. We actually had this done to an established maple in our front yard that was slowly dying. It was quite amazing the difference it made.

So will your trees die if you dig around them? Probably not, even if some roots have to be removed. Will your tree damage your pond liner? Again, probably not. Most tree roots would rather go around a liner than through it - the path of least resistance. Are either of those absolutes? Definitely not! So the decision on whether this is the place for your pond is up to you.

You may also want to keep in mind that driving excavating equipment over tree roots can be extremely hard on the tree - some species (oak for example) simply cannot handle it and will die. Also, did you know that the honey locust is a relatively short-lived tree? 150 years is considered to be the maximum - in an urban yard they tend to last 60-70 years. They are fast growing trees, which is another clue to the life span. But they are lovely, so I can understand your concern for yours - added to their sentimental value of course!

And, yes, the trees will be messy for your pond, but most pond owners deal with trees around their pond - after all, your pond is meant to be part of the natural landscape, not an entity unto itself. Having your pond shaded or even partially shaded is an important thing, so don't avoid the location for fear of the trees overhanging the pond.

For a 24 inch deep pond, you could perhaps have a dry stack wall for the above ground portion, without doing any actual masonry. Or use the pre-formed concrete "bricks" that are so popular now in landscaping and are very easy to install. That way you would dig very little below ground and bother your tree very minimally. The important roots on your trees are far below the surface.

Good luck! It's smart to think all of these things through before you get involved in a project and realize there are issues you didn't consider!

 

[Priscilla]

I also dug around a very old tree. Its a special tree to us because its our favorite fruit and likely that my great grandfather planted it. I stayed shallow on that side of the pond and didn't run into any of its roots. I went deeper on the far end from the tree. My pond is about 14 feet wide, just to give you an idea. But around 18 inches deep I didn't run into any major roots, a few small ones (very small stringy ones), but no huge ones that I suspected would be anchoring the tree. My pond starts about 10 feet or less from the tree.

Can you hand work around your tree? If you don't hit any roots, then carefully bring in the heavy equipment? Just get a shovel and see what you run into.

There were some trees I really didn't care about and I chopped a lot of their roots off and they just kept on growing, no problem. But every tree is different.

I saw on a site someplace someone had used wood logs to build an above ground pond, almost like a log cabin style. They were kinda stacked on each other with a liner inside the wood. Looked great and not that hard to do.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

As a new pond owner, I can tell you its worth all the stress you go through to get it started.

 

[Priscilla]

Oh one more thing, in a gardening class I took on fruit trees, we were told that the roots extend as far as the canopy.

 

[Lardeelion]

Thanks, both of you.

I just happen to be taking a Master Gardener course and the administrator has a Masters in Forestry, so she's the person I'm waiting to hear from. I think hand-digging is a smart idea. The borders of the pond can shift as necessary, and it's not a huge pond either.

My nerves are frazzled about this, thinking it was a go, then it was a no-go, and now the pressure of trying not to kill my dear old dad's favorite tree (he's convinced if I look at it with a shovel in my hand that it will die)...I do think it'll be worth it if I can just get it done. Well, if spring ever comes...

 

[adavisus]

You can chop half the roots off a tree and it will cope fine. Roots going elsewhere will continue to develop

When digging you hit a main root, excavate deeper around it and past it, then get an axe or a hacksaw to sever it accurate

 

[morewater]

You shouldn't have a major problem with digging around a honey locust, as they have what is classified as a tap root system (rather than a heart root). The major tap root on this species of tree will most likely extend beyond ten feet into the ground. The secondary roots around the ball, if not completely obliterated with the digging process, will not affect the longevity of the tree. Only remove what needs to be removed and leave the rest alone.

 

[Big Lou]

If you have any remaining doubts I believe it most advisable to consult a licensed arborist. It will be money well spent. Good luck.

 

[addy1]

I dug near our apple trees and a very large maple tree, maybe 10 feet from the trunk, hit a few long roots, it did not effect the trees at all.

 

[Lardeelion]

From the mouth of a tree expert:

While some trees do indeed have a tap root, the most important part of the root system are the small fibrous roots that are found in the top 6-10” of soil. This are of the soil is where the tree absorbs water and oxygen to convert the stored sugars into energy.


I would recommend not cutting into the roots anywhere near the trunk. Not only will this chop off the outer roots but will also greatly affect the structural stability of the tree making it more likely to fail in a strong storm or with saturated soils.


How large is the crown of the tree? A good rule of thumb is to remember that the root system goes out further than the crown. If you need to disturb the root system under the tree go as far out to the edge of the crown as possible.


You may want to look at other locations in your yard for your pond. Remember, once you damage a large limb or root, it won’t grow back. Please exercise caution!
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Dang. Now what.....? I guess I cut carefully around. Or build up.

 

[morewater]

Yup, it's like reading the side-effects to a prescription. The cure is often worse than the disease.

Dig carefully, do it by hand. It really isn't a big deal. Do what you will.

 

[Lardeelion]

I think I shall. Thanks, everyone.

 

[sissy]

My pond half in ground and half out .Inside is concrete block and out side is retaining wall block .Side walk side is only 1 block up and then other side is built up with extra dirt with one block set on top .But soil is heavy clay so was easy to compact and set concrete block on and put 2 pieces of rebar down each block with clay soil packed inside block openings .The retaining wall is a couple of inches outside all the block .I did not want to see liner sticking out between retaining wall block so this was an easy fix for that

 

[Lardeelion]

My pond half in ground and half out .Inside is concrete block and out side is retaining wall block .Side walk side is only 1 block up and then other side is built up with extra dirt with one block set on top .But soil is heavy clay so was easy to compact and set concrete block on and put 2 pieces of rebar down each block with clay soil packed inside block openings .The retaining wall is a couple of inches outside all the block .I did not want to see liner sticking out between retaining wall block so this was an easy fix for that

Sissy, just so I'm clear...you built the wall up and then lay the underlayment/liner down on the dirt (after compacting it), correct? My husband wants to try a raised brick pond and I don't want to pour concrete under it if I don't have to. Is that a dumb question? Do we need concrete under it? We dug a few experimental holes and the tree roots are extremely large and I either have to find a new spot or build a raised pond. Neither of us knows a darn thing about brickwork or cement.