Fall Clean/Winter

[gilbenl]

I recently began leasing a house with a backyard "pond" with one Koi and 5 large goldfish. I refer to it as a "pond" because it is actually a 30+ year old kiddy pool that was converted to a water feature. It measures about 10 ft X 6 ft and is about 3 ft deep. A water-spitting frog fountain serves as the aerator. There is bamboo around the pool, but no plants in the water. I feed the fish 2-3 times a day (for now), regularly clean surface debris, and add AquaSafe Plus every two weeks. That's about all I do. The water stays clear and the fish seem healthy and active.

As winter approaches, I have a goal of keeping these suckers alive...which shouldn't be terribly hard considering that I am in Jackson MS. We do have our cold snaps though, and it was below freezing for almost a month straight last winter. Here's my plan thus far:

1) Feed 3X daily until the water temp drops below 60, then cut back. As it gets below 50, only feed a couple times a week.
2) When it gets very cold, turn off the pump as to not disturb the warmer water at the bottom.
3) Ensure that there is at least a portion of the surface that is not frozen, but not by breaking the ice.
4) Keep plant debris out, especially as it gets cold.

Any additions to that list would be appreciated

I do have one issue though: There is about 4-5" of dead organic matter at the bottom of the pool that has likely collected for many years. I am hesitant to drain the pond and remove it for a couple reasons. First, the pond is built like a swimming pool. Five cement sides with fading blue paint. I'm worried that if I were to clean it out, should we have an inevitable 100 degree day, the fish will cook. Similarly, wouldn't the layer of debris act like an insulator in the winter? The fish seem to enjoy having it, and regularly eat little critters that live within it. I should mention that there is about 2.5-3 ft of water between the top of the debris and the surface of the water.

Thanks for any advice folks!

 

[addy1]

The muck is not good, it is rotting material, makes anaerobic bacteria, produces gas that will collect under the ice if it freezes over.
You would be best to net, vacuum it out, doing some water changes while you work on it, you will be stirring up some real yuck. When we picked up some fish from a unattended pond, gas bubbles, a oil slick and black mucky water occurred when it got stirred up as we tried to catch the fish.

 

[koiguy1969]

THE DEBRIS ON THE BOTTOM GOTTA GO...they decompose and release toxins into the water, harbors parasites, and bad bacteria. i would pump 1/2 of that water into a kidy pool or clean plastic trash cans, totes or whatever. put your fish in with tyhed pumped water. you dont want to stir up tha crud with them in the pond....pump[ out the rest of the water and clean up the bottom...if youve got rocks in there remove them as well, they just help more debris collect. just because the fish are alive doesnt mean theyre happy or healty. the water you pumpout to save, pump from above the bottom as not to pump the crud with it.once its cleaned up. you can 1/3 fill the pond with clean fresh water. dechlorinate if its municipal water...well water dont worry. return the old pond water and fish to the pond, and trickle fill the rest of the pond with clean fresh water. we would all strongly advise you build a biological filter as well. several good designs in the DIY section....most here would reccomend you stop feeding all together at 50*f water temp. your pond isnt really deep enough to worry about any significant water temp differences...run your pump all year if you can. the pond bottom should be kept as clean as possilble. this lightens the burden on the filtration..especially the biological.
p.s..this thread should have been posted in the winterizing forum...

 

[j.w]

Hmmmmmmmmm, I didn't read anything about a filter in your pond. Do you have any?
I stop feeding my fish also at around 55F and don't feed again til Spring when temps get over 55F.

 

[gilbenl]

Well I guess I know what I'll be doing this weekend...

At this time there is no filter at all. I'll take a look at some possibilities.

Sorry if this is in the wrong section. Figured it would be better to post in the noob section rather than mucking up others.

Thanks for the advice folks! I'll put up some before/after shots next week.

 

[addy1]

You are fine posting here, the forum is just trying to keep all winter ??'s in one place. But you are new....
Check the diy section there are some good filters you can build for not much money and they work well.

Oh and btw welcome! to our group

 

[j.w]

Oh yes and

gilbenl

 

[Waterbug]

You have 4-5" of muck, the pond has been in place for several years I'd have to assume with fish. And I'd have to assume has been through a few winters I'm guessing with no help from whoever lived there before. The fish are happy and active.

OMG, we have to change all this! You need a bead filter, a pump, plants, a UV filter, new liner, a water falls, a stream, a bog, and several hundred other things. That way your fish will be happy and active...like they are now.

Does this make any sense at all? It absolutely makes my head spin.

Here's the pecking order in the pond world:

Koi owners - OMG you must keep plants and every speck of dust out of the pond and kill those F'in goldfish they have no place in the world, much less a pond. $5-10K worth of filters is not unusual.

Water Gardeners - OMG you must add plants but keep ALL muck out of the pond. Goldfish and Koi are OK as long as you don't spend more than $20 for the Koi. $100-$1,000 worth of filters.

Wildlife Ponders - OMG you must add plants and have at least 1" of muck. No filters or pumps. No F'in Koi in the pond. They have no place in the world much less a pond.

The first step is deciding which kind of pond you want. Ask the same question in each group and you will get wildly different answers. Of course there are in between ponds, but not forums.

The reason your fish are happy with the muck is for the reason you noticed, they like all the critters living in the muck. You know, the stuff that makes all that toxic stuff that kills everything. That's because this type of fish and all those critters spent the last million years or so evolving to live in that world. Living in a spotless rubber liner world is completely alien to them although they can survive it.

Muck does produce toxic chemicals but not anywhere close to the levels these animals can't handle. Fish produce ammonia too, extremely toxic. But in general a pond has the ability to deal with that chemical, just as the system can deal with chemicals produced by muck.

To your points:

1) Fish know when it's time to stop eating. They figured this out long before people were around. However, 3x a day is a lot. It doesn't really hurt them other than getting fat which isn't perfect health. Fish need very little food. Even once a week would be fine, but not as much fun. Fish farms care much more about temperature and feeding because they don't like to waste food.

2) Thermal stratification happens in water deeper than 15-20 feet. Not an issue in 3' ponds.

3) Fish don't require an opening in the ice in general. No harm if you do. I assume the pond is in the ground? Unlikely in your area it would freeze solid. Muck doesn't add any insulation.

4) Removing plant debris is fine. However, as related to cold, plant debris does less harm in cold water than warm. It's an O2 thing. Everything slows down in cold water including the critters using O2 to eat muck. Plus the water holds a lot more O2 in colder water.

I don't like a lot of muck but that's just a personal preference. Even in a wildlife pond, where muck is desired, 4-5" in a 3' pond is a lot of muck. The extra thickness doesn't add productivity. 1-2" is the target.

To remove the muck you can just scoop it out with a minnow net or a swimming pool leaf rake (it's a net). When you stir up the muck you will indeed smell rotten eggs, the water will look like the end of the world and you may see an oil slick. You may want to barf. Your fish will be busy eating all the critters stirred up. They'll want to know when you can do it again. The reason you smell the rotten eggs is because it isn't in the pond any more, it's up your nose. Hydrogen sulfide isn't very water soluble. Fish can handle it. It's pond owners who can't handle muck. These gases are also toxic to humans...they will kill you in a few minutes...but not in the amounts produced in a pond.

The muck will probably settle in a day. Repeat the scooping. If you keep repeating it'll probably take 3-5 sessions to have a spotless bottom.

I strongly recommend NOT emptying the pond to clean if that's even a consideration. That would be very dangerous for the fish and does no better job than scooping out the muck.

I know my observations go against virtually all "wisdom" out there, but it's just a rant I like to bring up every 10 years or so. I know it does little good but you sound like you've already given this some logical thought and thought I'd add my 2 cent.

Why are you adding AquaSafe Plus? It has specific uses. Using it every 2 weeks sounds like advice from who ever is selling it to you. It does have a nice name. I guess AquaChemicals wouldn't sell as well.

I don't know your pond...you said 30 year kiddie pool, but then said the sides are concrete? If it really is a 30 year old kiddie pool there could be a problem doing anything because the water containment system could fail. I don't know what it's made of but I'm pretty sure 30 years as a pond is a bit beyond it's expected life. I don't know your situation but if you were serious about going down the path of adding lots of products, filters, etc., I'd suggest building a new pond with a EDPM liner. Unlike all the other things, keeping a pond water tight is a requirement.

 

[koiguy1969]

koi and goldfish havent been evolving for even close to a million years just the last couple thousand. since man took their genetic predeccessors and began mixing breeds,and inbreeding (mostly), causing all the genetic "mutations" that have made the fish we love today...from koi not having as strong of a immune system as their wild counterparts, to the beautiful colors we like so much. these mutations would be detrimental to their survival in the wild. they make far easier targets for preditors. thats why preditors love our ponds because they easier to hunt. mutations are always counterproductive or a negatives in nature.thats why why so many dog varieties are prone to defects and physical annomolies.theres no comparing a natural enviroment to a closed system like our ponds. i've never heard of a muck pond..MUD YES! MUCK NO! and these Mud ponds are drained and the excess MUCK removed on a regular basis when the fish are harvested for sorting / culling. just because they may find a snack in the muck doesnt mean its a good thing. IMHO ...the risk involved in leaving the muck far outweighs any possible benefits. mud ponds having a natural abundance of bentonite and zeolite clay which allow for great deal of nutrient exchange and toxin absorbtion....they are a large part of GODs natural filtration system. just my humble opinion

 

[ididntdoit99]

That's because this type of fish and all those critters spent the last million years or so evolving to live in that world. Living in a spotless rubber liner world is completely alien to them although they can survive it.

Did these critters spend millions of years living in a rubber lined hole with muck in it?

If I look at your posts, they are all the same, telling everyone that thier ideas are ridiculous, and that fish can live in a mud puddle if they want to. Well, yes, I could probably raise koi in a mud puddle, but mud puddles arent lined with a rubber liner, so nature can do its thing. Now in OUR backyard ponds, lined with rubber or plastic is a whole different story, where we have a build up of MUCK (pure waste), not a MUD bottom.

I also noticed your profile says you are pondless. Do you just drop by once in a while to tell us what we are doing wrong and to act above us all?

My imaginary pond is WAY better than your imaginary pond.

 

[Waterbug]

Koiguy, good point on the reduced immune system of koi and goldfish. However, they do have some immune system and defenses. Imo koi and goldfish can and do live in ponds with muck.

And also to a smaller degree on the predator point. I do think a carp in a clear pond would be equally seen by Herons flying overhead since they are really good at spotting fish. In a muddy pond Koi and Goldfish would stand out a bit better if within a 1/2" of the surface. For raccoons I think carp and Koi/Goldfish would be on equal footing as raccoons hunt more by feel than sight. Cats more by motion than color.

Yes, they do call them mud ponds, I was going for a play on words to make a point, sorry. Rose by another name. It's hair splitting to say a "mud" pond is different from a "muck" pond. The "cleaned" ponds are far from muck free. And after 6 to 12 months there is what I consider muck in the pond. I do think the cleaning has more to do with making the harvest easier. Certainly any bacteria or viruses that were in the muck before the cleaning are still in the pond after the cleaning. Farmers will generally only treat to kill bacteria and viruses if there's been a problem.

ididntdoit, there is very little difference between a rubber lined hole and a clay lined hole other than the clay can provide even more nutrients to all the bugs, bacteria and viruses. Muck will build up on clay, rubber, fiberglass, concrete, etc., bottoms. It's the same basic ecosystem. If you take a sample of muck from a clay pond and lined pond to a chemist or biologist they will not be able to tell which sample came from which pond.

I'm sorry you don't like my posts. I know they aren't the party line. Many ideas in ponding are indeed ridiculous, although I would not be so blunt. I perfer to give my opinions along with my reasoning and let people judge for themselves. I don't resort to bulling and name calling. But if I were in such a conversation I would go a bit further and say that handing out myths as facts to new ponders is harmful to the hobby. These myths are the stock and trade of wannabe experts who just repeat the same old tried myths with never doing any actual learning.

And I didn't realize having a current pond was a requirement for membership. But if you want to continue to try and bully and insult me perhaps we could continue in private messages? I don't think people come here for that.