Diagnosing a dead fish and other q's

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This is going to be a long post, so Ill keep the actual questions short and up front:

1) can you diagnose a dead fish for parasites, and roughly how long after he died? Hours or a day? Longer? Would putting it in a fridge or freezer help conserve the parasite? Should I keep it dry or wet?

2) I have an ancient, but I think very high quality microscope (used to be my father's lab scope some 30 years ago), but without lightsource, just a mirror. I can magnify all I want, up to 1600x, but am I going to have any chance of seeing parasites with a mirror? What about when shining a flashlight on it?

3) anyone have a link to help me get started with diagnosing with a scope? How I should take samples, pictures of parasites that I should be looking for with a given magnification, etc.

4) whats wrong with my fish? Ok, thats not a real question, but see below.

Background: 3 weeks ago my super dirty pond emptied itself by accident, leaving the fish grasping in thick mud. All of them were rescued, moved to a tiny temporary pond. About a week later, I started refilling the pond and after a few days, I put the fish back. For the past week, it has been filling up gradually (its large), with fish friendly tap water.

Significantly, 2 weeks ago, I also bought 10 healthy looking baby koi from a non dealer.

My pond is large (50K liter), very lightly stocked (1 large koi, 8 or so medium, and a bunch of goldfish, baby koi and some other fish). My water tests absolutely fine with my drop test kit. No measurable ammonia or nitrites, stable Ph of 7.5, decent GH and KH.

Symptoms:
Most of the baby koi are dying I fear. One already died, The others are often floating helplessly, tail up or tail down, sideways. Some of them seem covered in slime. Almost all of them have clamped fins. Note, they werent like this when I bought them. But they might have had a temperature shock, as my pond was still (too) cold when I put them in. They are barely eating and not getting better despite the water warming up.

My older Koi have recently also began showing symptoms of stress and/or illness. They all flash more often then Id like, and increasingly so, and my oldest and biggest koi I noticed today has a red veins in his tall fin. Put all together, something aint right! Although all the non baby koi otherwise behave normally, not scared, they eat a lot, they swim normally, aside from the occasional flashing. No other signs I can see besides the one red tail fin.

Most of these signs, at least for the big ones, could be explained by stress, from changing ponds, changing water, me working in and around the pond, but the symptoms are getting worse, not better and they have been in the same pond, with stable water for 1 or 2 weeks now. Mostly, they just dont seem stressed. Add to that the problems with the small ones, and I think something bad is up.

Problem:
Its a big pond, and I simply cant catch them! Not even the ailing baby kois that float around as if dead, if a net comes anywhere near them, its like they have a 6th sense and they sprint to the other side of the pond like speedy gonzales. And I dont want to stress them even more trying endlessly.

If symptoms with the big koi get worse, I will grab a big one, that might be doable while feeding. In the mean time, I was thinking of waiting if or until one of the small ones dies, and if so, have it diagnosed or try myself, depending on the answers above. If I cant do it myself, it might be a full day before I can get it to a koi dealer though, and so that is also why I wonder if there is a point in that.
 

fishin4cars

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I can help on some of this, some I can't but will try to do what I can. First off you microscope will probably work for 80% of the parasites, Once you know what to look for, Bacteria, and fungal infections are going to be somewhat harder with bacterial infections being the hardest. Freezing a dead fish as soon as it dies will preserve most parasites and fungal infections. best way is to wrap in plastic wrap tightly with no water, then place it in a ziplock bag. It should be good for a week or longer but of course the sooner you can get it to someone that knows what to look for the better.
Most of the symptoms you describe point toward water or chemical issue. But you water is showing good on tests. ????? red streaks of blood in the fins points to stress and possible ammonia, Do you have a good flow of oxygen into the pond? This is why the big overturn of water is needed, the more flow rate the easier it is to keep the water saturated in oxygen. Several hard blowing air stones or a pump/pumps jetting water across the surface sure can't hurt anything at this point.
If you have a koi farm or dealer close to you I would check and see do they know anyone that can identify microscopic problems. (I know, they aren't easy to find!) There are a couple of good books that would help but that's not helping you right now as you have to order and get them shipped.
Your biggest issue is going to be treating, Figuring out the exact amount of water, cost of medication the whole pond, and being able to monitor the fish once you start treating. This is why quarantining fish is so important. It's almost impossible to see underlying issues on what appears to be a healthy fish, the stress of a move can heighten the growth rate of bacteria and parasites and they don't start showing up for two or three weeks after purchasing. If it would have been caught in quarantine it would have been much easier to diagnose and treat.
 
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Yes, the water tests good, even if my test kit only has a granularity of 0.1ppm for total dissolved ammonia. Still ammonia (or nitrite) seems very unlikely with my fish load and pond volume, more so at the current temps when I look at the table here:
http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/ammonia.html

To stay below 0.02ppm free ammonia with my temps (15C) and PH (7.5), I would have to measure below ~2ppm total ammonia. Im not even measuring 0.1 ppm total ammonia, or at least 20x less. Well, Im measuring zero really, but I mean even it were 0.1 it should be safe with these temps.

Oxygen seems just as unlikely. Got a large airpump with an airdisc gong full blast in the pond, and 6 airstones in my biofilters that look like boiling soup. Combined with the relatively low water temp, if I where to pump more air in to the pond, there would be no water left :lol:

Of course it could be something else in my tapwater that I cant measure for. Im no biologist or chemists, and dont claim to understand everything in there, but this is what my tapwater is supposed to contain:
http://www.pidpa.be/nl/waterkwaliteit/pdf/Pidpa7_HD_Mol.pdf

I dont see anything problematic in there.

One thing that is probably not helping is fluctuating temperatures. The weather has been crazy, with highly variable temps, summer hot for a few days, and then cold again literally, freezing at nights. Now that the pond is full, it will keep its temp much better, but prior to that, Ive seen water temps bounce from sub 10C to 16-17C and back. Thats measured in the filter. Surface temps in the shallow parts (where the baby koi reside most of the time) could have been even further apart.

Temps are dropping as a stone again now, Ill stop or minimize feeding and see what happens. Ill also experiment a bit with the scope, look at algae or something. Make a scraping of a salamander or mussels. They are easier catch lol. And how knows, I might see something.

Thanks for the info about preserving the dead fish. I hope it doesnt come to that, but if it does, I do have a koi dealer here that will be able to help. Its a married couple, and both are educated as marine biologists. I just need to give them a fish :). Hope it wont be a dead one.
 

fishin4cars

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I can tell why your stumped, I can't see or hear anything either. I don't think it's water temp that's doing all that either, it may have some stress factor to add but by itself I don't think that is the problem. My water temps are swinging 10 degrees C right now from morning until mid day. Our air temps are running 55-60 F during the day and over 90 during the afternoon.

BTW, If I ever come across like I'm talking to a complete newbie to you or anyone else please overlook it. 8 years working in the pet stores and 15 years working offshore has brought that out in me. I find it better to talk like your a newbie and let you filter out what does and doesn't apply to your situation and gives information that newbies/or someone that is having a issue that is unexperienced with a issue, may find useful in their hunt for information with a sililar problem. Reading what I have I think getting a fish and water sample to your dealer and looking in a scope may be more on the right track.
 
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I caught one of the small ones today, as he was floating nearly upside down. I assumed him dead. I put him a 100 liter container with the same pond water, and he seems quite happy there. No clamped fins, not floating, not flashing. Its like he wants a small plastic container instead of my pond lol. Anyway, added an airpump, a few PVC pipes to hide in, and 0.3% salt, he looks completely healthy.. for now.?

I took a scraping of his skin and put it under the scope. Mirror works just fine with sunlight btw. I saw all kinds of interesting looking stuff that I cant identify, or have the faintest idea whether it means anything, but I saw nothing moving. I guess that rules out parasites?

Ill take him to the dealer tomorrow or monday and let them have a closer look. Hope he lasts that long.
 
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fishin4cars said:
BTW, If I ever come across like I'm talking to a complete newbie to you or anyone else please overlook it.

By all means, talk to me as a newbie, as thats precisely what I am. Just a newbie that has been reading a lot over the last months lol.
 
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Hurray, I caught two more babies.
Golden tip: catch your fish at night! With a flashlight to blind/distract them, I could easily scoop them up in a few minutes. So hopefully I will know more about the cause of their trouble tomorrow when I visit the koi doctor.

Question: they are in a tank that holds ~75 liter (20 gallon), with an airstone. Three small fish, all ca 4 inch. How long before I need to worry about changing water? I guess a day, or even a few days without feeding would be okay?
 

fishin4cars

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Just monitor ammonia, even if fed very lightly I would say a few days for sure. Your talking about 20 gallons, 5 gallon bucket of water set out or from the pond changed weekly and you could keep them for weeks that way.
 
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I had three koi's examined by my koi doctor. Verdict: nothing wrong with them. At least no parasites, no visible infection or any apparent illness. Water was tested perfectly fine too.

Either its all stress from moving and water changes, or the 0.3% salt treatment cured them overnight. So I bought a few 100Kg salt and will toss that in my pond.
 
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I hope its good news, but Im not sure it is. I think I would have preferred a certain diagnosis, preferably one with an easy and surefire treatment.

Googling more, it seems it is probably sleeping syndrome:
http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-forum/6635-what-sleeping-syndrome-koi.html

The symptoms match perfectly (floating around, as if asleep), the probable causes match perfectly (young fish, stress, cold), and my "treatment" was also accidentally bang on, at least half way: salt. Except for heat, apparently the way to cure them is salt AND heat, and its not going to get to anywhere near 30C here for a long time; I hope they will survive long enough. They are sleeping in my main pond again :)
 

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Intresting to say the least, That's the first time I have read or heard about that. Thanks for posting! Glad to hear they checked out good, seems like if this is the case, You may be able to treat, But now what kind of has me wondering, what caused the red steaks on your Large koi? Possibly just stress from the pond draining, being cleaned and refilled????
 
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fishin4cars said:
Intresting to say the least, That's the first time I have read or heard about that. Thanks for posting! Glad to hear they checked out good, seems like if this is the case, You may be able to treat, But now what kind of has me wondering, what caused the red steaks on your Large koi? Possibly just stress from the pond draining, being cleaned and refilled????

Yes I think so. I wouldnt have been too worried about occasional flashing and other mild stress symptoms (including red tail fin, which is also a stress symptom I read) in a "new" pond and after being moved 3 times in short order, if it werent for the far graver symptoms of the little ones, including, dying.

I think its also possible the big ones caught the same "sleeping" virus now, but arent as badly affected by it, as it seems to really impact only young koi. OTOH, today all my fish have remained at the bottom of the pond. Perhaps thats a reaction to the salt I added, not sure. I stopped at 0.15% btw, I read 0.3% really isnt a good idea if not needed.

Anyway, I had already set the small ones free in the pond, now I can go try and catch them again to put them in a heated salt bath. Unless someone has an idea how to heat 50K liter of water to 30C lol.
 
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I picked up a water heater.
The quarantine tank is ~15C now, like my pond, and Im supposed to bring it up to 30C (from 59F to 86F). How slow or fast should I do this? Is a few days slow enough?
 
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Meanwhile on a different forum, someone provided me with a link that is extremely interesting regarding sleeping syndrome. It seems this occurs when your fry are moved from a natural earthen pond to a concrete pond. Guess what, I have a concrete pond, and the fish where born and caught in a natural lake!

http://koinewsnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/12/18/koi-sleepy-disease-emerging-fish-disease-from-japan/

Maybe this even explains why these fish seem to do better immediately putting them in plastic containers? Although they already have the virus, so Im not quite sure how that would work.
 

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