Clueless

[S&S Oasis]

Just got married. Just bought a house with a pond. We know NOTHING about ponds. Bought about 6 Koi from the pet store. They all made it through our very mild winter. However, in the past 2 weeks they have ALL disappeared! Birds? Raccoons? We've read about putting nets over the pond but aren't sure what size or how it would work.

This past weekend, we drained our pond completely to clean it for the first time. We used a shopvac and buckets to haul out the water. What a chore! Was there an easier way to do this?

Now that it's empty we see that it's overrun with sludge down there.
Algae looks under control, there isn't much of it and there is absolutely none of the stringy kind that looks like a pipe cleaner.
There were lilly pads growing in their own sludge so we pulled them out so we can pot them and then place the pots in the pond when we refill it.

So we have an empty pond and want to make sure we know what we're doing before filling it back up.

When we moved in last July there were 2 filters already. I cannot find any brand names on them or models names on them. They are each about the size and weight of a normal cat (that's what I said) and they seems to clear up the water nicely and one of them creates a fountain-like situation. Those are the only appliances used in the pond right now.

Pond is about 10'L x 5'w x 3'd
Magnolia tree sits on the bank of the pond which will be fun to clean up after I'm sure
Dayton Ohio temps are about 60-70 degrees right now but will be climbing soon I'm sure
LOTS of big rocks on the bottom
Liner is in great condition from what I can see (assuming a good liner is one w/o holes)

*whats the concrete square we found at the bottom?*

 

[Waterbug]

You seem more committed than most people who inherit ponds so good for you.

What I tell all people new to ponds...there is a lot of info about ponds on the net and local "professionals"...almost all of it based on myth, much of it darn right harmful. My best advice is to read a lot and be skeptical. If something doesn't seem to make sense or too good to be true, it most likely is. Beware any advice that contains "it worked in my pond". People often attribute good results to something they did rather than the actual cause. Also beware of people who get defensive when asked follow up questions. They get defensive because they just repeated something that they heard and have no idea what they're talking about.

Most important first step is to decide what kind of pond you want. This drives everything. Good advice for one kind of pond is really bad advice for another. Here's the basics.

Wildlife ponds is letting nature do its thing. You can add plants, some goldfish which generally aren't fed. The most important characteristic is having muck on the bottom, or dead organic matter. Many bugs and creatures live in that muck and it is the foundation of a wildlife pond.

Kio ponds are at the other end of the spectrum and use lots of filters to remove as much organic matter as possible. Water is kept clear and the bottom as clean as a swimming pool. The goal is one living thing in the pond, Koi.

Water garden is everything in between.

You don't pick A B or C, but where generally in the spectrum sounds good to you.

The bottom line is the amount of dead organic matter you'll allow or want in your pond. The less dead organic matter the greater the effort but the more fish you can have and the clearer the water. It's certainly possible and very common to have muck on the bottom and super clear water but it's not so much under your control. In a spotless pond the owner has full control buy using many tools.

Most people keep a certain type of pond and they think everyone should keep the same kind, even if they say different. Their advice will always push their type of pond. Human nature. So you will seem to get conflicting advice and that can drive a person insane.

Questions I would ask when installing a pond to determine where in the spectrum they want to be:

1. Is super clear water is most important?

2. Are Koi a requirement?

3. Are Koi for competing in shows a requirement?

4. Do you like nature including insect life that aren't harmful to humans?

5. How important is attracting birds?

6. Is the pond mainly for plants?

7. Would you consider ripping the current pond out and rebuilding? There are tons more choices. Or would you very much like to do as little as possible? This greatly reduces the number of things you have to consider.

8. Because the pond came with the house I'd ask if you really want a pond. It can be filled with gravel and planted spectacular water loving plants. Called a "bog" even though it isn't a bog. Very easy and not very expensive. You can even have a water feature like a fountain or water falls.

8. What's your budget?

I can't start by talking about filters and such because they would have no idea. So start with what you do know, what you know about yourself and what you want.

Some thoughts about your current pond...

Because you didn't find the Koi bodies I'd assume it was predators. Because they're all gone I'd suspect Heron. Or river otter if you have them.

There are easier ways to clean a pond. But for yours, loose rock, draining and shop vac is the standard method. The only national pond builder uses this method. Your pond was probably not built by that company, but large loose rocks is their method. They require yearly clean outs and charge in the $300-500 range last time I checked.

Whether you want rocks in the bottom or not is up to you. Rocks do interfere with all cleaning methods, scooping with a net, vacuuming, or bottom drain. The rocks can be removed.

I personally like the look of rocks so I mortar them in place. That allows for normal cleaning (I like easy) and I still get the look I like.

Knowing the pond size in gallons is kind of important. Based on your dimensions and pictures I'd guess it's about 900 gal. That is pretty small for Koi. Possible, but effort and cost goes up if you want to keep them alive. Goldfish can get pretty large, 10-16", and many people can't tell them apart from Koi.

The concrete block I assume was for setting a plant pot on.

There are lots of little magic things people would like to sell you to dump in your pond...they are all cons. I don't mean some...I mean all. But most do little actual harm. Their primary benefit is making you feel good for a short time so they do have an important function.

 

[addy1]

We've read about putting nets over the pond but aren't sure what size or how it would work

I have been fighting a heron, So far have won, with some floating alligator heads, some chicken wire around the edge where the bird could easily get into the pond. I have one piece of deer fencing (black net) over the center of the pond so it can't easily fly in

This past weekend, we drained our pond completely to clean it for the first time. We used a shopvac and buckets to haul out the water. What a chore! Was there an easier way to do this?

a sump pump works great

There were lilly pads growing in their own sludge so we pulled them out so we can pot them and then place the pots in the pond when we refill it.

I pot mine in cheap walmart oil pans and kitty litter (pure clay from walmart)

Pond is about 10'L x 5'w x 3'd

at those measurements it is around 1122 gallons
I would stick with goldfish, shubunkins, they can be very pretty, I have them, beautiful colors and easier to care for

LOTS of big rocks on the bottom

love rocks they just make it hard to scoop out muck

Liner is in great condition from what I can see (assuming a good liner is one w/o holes)

yep that makes a good liner lol it holds water

 

[addy1]

During my 5 mile walk, thought of something that might help with your clean out. Get a cheap sump pump that handles solids, from harbor freight, home depot etc.

Put some water in the pond stir it up, use the pump to suck it out. Just repeat until you are pleased with the way it looks.

 

[S&S Oasis]

Most important first step is to decide what kind of pond you want. This drives everything. Good advice for one kind of pond is really bad advice for another.

Wildlife ponds is letting nature do its thing. You can add plants, some goldfish which generally aren't fed. The most important characteristic is having muck on the bottom, or dead organic matter. Many bugs and creatures live in that muck and it is the foundation of a wildlife pond.

Kio ponds are at the other end of the spectrum and use lots of filters to remove as much organic matter as possible. Water is kept clear and the bottom as clean as a swimming pool. The goal is one living thing in the pond, Koi.

Water garden is everything in between.

We loved having the Koi. The pond is 50% of the reason we bought the house. We both loved historical homes AND the idea of tending to a pond, fish, plants, ect. When we had the Koi, seeing them was the highlight of our evenings but scummy water filled w/ debris was beginning to ruin that. We just want healthy fish that we can see and a pond that can be routinely maintained (not just once or twice a year). We are more than willing to put in the time but don't know how to budget our $$ as we don't know what products are good, worthless, scams, surprisingly priceless...
[/quote]

1. Is super clear water is most important?

Aside from the health of our fish, it is the most important factor

2. Are Koi a requirement?

Fish in general. We'd like frogs but our dog cannot be trusted with them

3. Are Koi for competing in shows a requirement?

Not at all

4. Do you like nature including insect life that aren't harmful to humans?

Butterflies are the only insects that I tolerate but don't love. It's sad but true.

5. How important is attracting birds?

That would be nice

6. Is the pond mainly for plants?

In the near future, after we've got a "pond plan" I'd love to start adding plants that would be a good fit for us.

We would never ever start over if we have a choice. I love everything about the actual pond size, layout and location. Our house sat empty for over a year before we bought it so it just needs some TLC.

9. What's your budget?

Our budget is limited as we depleted our savings to buy a house last year so for now we need to spend as little as possible here and there to get us by.

 

[sissy]

Well since you are cleaning that pond you could always buy a bigger liner and dig a bigger hole and make your pond bigger .Better to do it now than wish after you got this one back together ,I should have built it bigger .If it is in the budget since it is a new house and new marriege money may be a factor .You may be a lot happier .There are some nice places to buy pond stuff in Ohio .Think about that long and hard because it is easier now that you have this torn apart .Bigger may make you both happier .

 

[S&S Oasis]

We did discuss whether or not we liked the size of the pond. If it were any bigger we would be overwhelmed. We are Jehovahs Witnesses so that alone keeps our schedule pretty full- especially weekends. We would however love to dress it up and add a bridge, waterfall, ect but we will cross all of those bridges when we get to them

 

[Waterbug]

We both loved historical homes AND the idea of tending to a pond, fish, plants, ect.

People after my own heart on both counts.

I think I understand where you want to be. Here's where you're at...900 gal, say 6 Koi, fish health rated high...that's puts you at full blown Koi pond. The common forum answer is "You can't have Koi in that pond". I prefer to explain the reasons, offer options, and since it's your pond, leave it to you to decide.

Here's the basics on creating a Koi pond with minimum water volume...
Let's assume 6 small Koi initially.

Two basic things affect Koi health, O2 and ammonia. There are other things but lets start here. Both O2 and ammonia are effected primarily by food. Koi eat a lot, or I at least they should. Automatic feeder for 5-8 feedings per day, 2-3% of total fish body weight per day. It's all about the total weight of fish...nothing to do with number of fish. Virtually everyone feeds way less and have stunted fish. Just as human growth is stunted of a lack of food so are Koi. Many people think it unhealthy for growing humans to go hungry but are OK if their pets suffer from hunger.

The food creates issues...

Food converts into ammonia (pee, poo, respiration) which is toxic to fish at feeding temperatures. Your pond can handle ammonia produced by young fish without a problem, not much food. As the fish and food amount grow the ammonia will become a problem for this fish load. You will most likely need a serious bio filter to convert the ammonia. These are easy to build and cheap. Names are moving bed, shower filter and trickle tower. A popular filter in water gardens is called a Skippy but it converts 10 to 30 times less ammonia. They're popular in water gardens because these pond general don't actually need a bio filter. You wouldn't have a water garden.

So bio filter shouldn't be a problem.

Next issue is the poo from all the food. People will call it muck and say it's toxic, but poo isn't muck. Poo becomes muck just as horse manure becomes soil. The problem is when a horse is kept in a stall vs a pasture. The stall has to be cleaned weekly as the poo piles up and becomes a serious health issue. Normally in Koi ponds this cleaning is done automatically by systems designed into the pond when built. Your pond is already built and you're not wanting to remodel so this is a problem. You could still do a remodel using the existing hole and liner by lifting part of the liner, install a bottom drain and returns, and then you would need filters to remove the poo.

To solve the problem without doing a remodel you'd have to vacuum at least weekly and more often the more fish health is important to you. That means the rocks should be removed and you won't want plants inside the pond, really hard to clean around them. You can build adjacent tiny pond(s) just for plants and they will appear to be in the pond without actually being in the pond.

With some planning you it could take about 30-60 minutes per vacuuming during the feeding season. Maybe $100-500 for a good vacuum setup. Not sure if this breaks the time and money budgets.

Air pump for the first year or two. Then a second air pump is needed because large Koi in small ponds can die should a single pump break. $30-100.

You would need a pretty large pump as you want to provide some current in the pond to exercise the fish. Maybe $200-300.

Drip water changing. Normally run 24/7 but for your size pond and the smallest emitter you'd really need a timer. It would use about 10-20 gals of water a week plus making up for evaporation so no problem.

So we're at about $400-1000 and about 1 hour of maintenance per week.

You have options...
An easier route is to add goldfish instead of Koi. Both are great pets. A 5 year old Koi is going to be 10-15 lbs which in the same conditions can support about 20-30 full grown goldfish 10-14" long. Few people can tell the difference between goldfish and Koi. Even when full grown a stunted Koi and a well kept goldfish can be very close to the same size.

You could scale back your desire for good fish health. Many people consider "healthy" to be any fish that isn't dead. Tons of people keep Koi in poor conditions and think it a perfect home. But after 5 years the fish might only be 12-14" long when they should be 24-30" which is an indication of long term poor water. The key to keeping fish like this and being happy about it is to not learn anything about Koi keeping. I'm not throwing stones, I had fish for dinner. It's their lot in life. I don't go out of my way to be cruel but I don't put my head in the sand either.

You can start with 6 Koi and then cull them as they grow. A single 5 year Koi could be happy in 900 gal with the air pump, good size water pump and bio filter and maybe just a monthly vacuuming because you'd be feeding less total food.

As I said, you could do a bit of a remodel to get some reduction in cleaning.

Or change the maintenance time limitation, or budget.