Before I add my Fish

GreatDanesDad

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OK I have built my 2000 gallon pond. I have a 5000 GPH pump. The pump is running two waterfalls each fall is 2 feet above the water surface, so the pump is still rated for 4400 GPH. Before each pump the water is ran into the bottom of a 25 gallon bucket. The buckets have a space in the bottom with the water swirling in a vortex then is pushed up through about 10 inches of scouring pads. Here was what I used for my filter design. I would like comments on if this will work.
The water flows out of my filters into fill areas that overflow to make waterfall. At this point, I don’t intend on having plants in the water.

So here are my questions. First, is that enough water flow for fish. Second, do I need activated carbon in my filters? Third, how long do I wait to add fish to the pond? I intend on a few gold fish, and a few Koi. Only 2000 gallons, I don’t think I need a lot of fish, and for a first time pond builder doing it on the cheap.

Other considerations, I am in the Phoenix area, and am worried about the temperature of the water in the summer. The pond is 80% shaded, and 5ft deep in the deepest area. Anything else recommended to help with temperature. My neighbor adds ice blocks in July Aug and September, thoughts on that?
 
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Is there going to be a water tight lid on those buckets? How does the water exit from them? You are pushing a ton of water into a small area so i wonder about overflowing...
Or as i reread it, maybe the water is intended to overflow out the top?
 

Ruben Miranda

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Hello
That filter is a good concept.
But as Deiselplower sugested was defenitly get a tite lid on it.
All it would take was one of those flow pipes to get clogged and or just slow down and it would over flow and drain your pond if you where not home to catch it.

But nice job that pond is going to look good.

Ruben
 

koiguy1969

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the filter in the video is basically a "skippy" style upflow filter. IMO, 4400 gph is definately too much flow for one 25 gal basin.maybe even a bit much for two. and even splitting that rate of flow to two filter basins you will need atleast a 3" output on each filter . this style of filter is also meant to be plumbed after the pump. i use this type filter, but in a 55 gal plastic barrel. and a 2" outlet is about maxxed out at 1000 - 1200gph. for reference you may want to check out my build thread... http://www.gardenpon...r-skippy-style/
hope this helps you out.
 

GreatDanesDad

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Ok I am going to answer the first question with a question. I do have a lid on the filter, but not presure tight. I cut the barrels down from 55 gallons. 25 was a low ball, im guessing they are closer to 35 gallons per filter, but each have two outlets. I started with one small one and then drilled another and widened them out slowly to find the point that they filters dont overflow higher than the holes.

Next comment, i am pretty proud to respond to. I keep hearing about pump problems and draining ponds. I have ran my hosing to the falls under the water of the pond and then at the points where they are connected to the filters, and around the filters is designed that if I overflow or break a fitting, the water will still find its way back into the pond instead of flooding my yard. :)

Third thanks for the link to the filter, that was is a good design, I am going to integrate a screen into my inlets like he shows. I am however hoping that my two filters will be able to handle the flow. 2200gph per 35 gallon filter. Might need to up design, but all is hidden with this heigh. Need to build more if i have to go to full 55g barrels.

Thanks for all the thoughts. Any opinions on activated carbon in the filters? Help with temperature? Or how long till I put my fish in? Do I need to do something to introduce the benificial bacteria to my pond???
 
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With a large pond with that much filtration i would say you could start putting fish in as soon as you neutralize any harmful chemicals in the water.

What questions do you have about temperature? I think your high flow rate through the waterfalls will help keep the water well aerated and as cool as possible. It would help to throw floating plants like water lettuce and water hyacinth in the pond to help shade it as well.

Oh i just reread it and see that the pond is 80% shaded. Good deal. Some people actually run fans to blow a breeze over the top of the pond to speed up evaporation. I guess if i were you id monitor pond temps and go from there.
 

koiguy1969

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What size outlets does your filters have? ...at 2200gph per filter with 2" outlets you will need 2 outlets on each filter. if your using 1" your headed for disaster.. with an upflow, "gravity return" filter theres no need for a lid,. if it doesnt seal water tight it wont do any good anyways. a 2" pipe will handle 4 -5 times the flow of a 1"...a 3" can double that.
 

GreatDanesDad

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Dieselplower, thank you. What is the most effective way to neutralize any harmful chemicals in the pond? Is there anything I can do to help, before I just hook the hose up and start filling?

KoiGuy, I have two outlets that gravity fill my waterfall boxes. Both are 1.5 inch. Higher on the wall of the filter is a third 2 inch outlet that is there in case one of the other filters plug up, or one of the falls is shut off.

I love all the info on the filters. Last night, after your comments, I started running the pump out of a 55 gallon barrel and into my two filters and then back into the barrel just to check flow. I can run one or both filters without overflowing. It does utilize the enitre openings of the (2) 1.5" outlets and the 2" outlet when only one filter is used.
 

Ruben Miranda

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Hello
For sure when filling you would want to use a declour liquid to get rid of the clorine and let it filter for a day or so.
When you add fish you should only add a couple (Depending on Size) and let the pond slowly build benificail Bacteria
and let the pond cycle.
Cycle can take a couple of weeks
have a test kit on hand
Cycle you will see
ammonia first then you will see nitrites these two are very harmfull to fish so keep a eye on this.
once the ammonia and nitrites is con you will see Nitrates this is a sign that the pond is cycling and building benifiacial Bactria.
if your Ammo and Nitrites get high you can counter it with small water changes or conter acting agents such as ammo lock.
I would go with water changes and make sure you use declor also.
Once you pond has cycled you can add a few more fish.
I would recomend not putting in a lot of fish at one time.
It is always better to add fish a few at a time allowing the filter media to slowly build Bactria and not cuase a new cycle.
Also if it is cold cold out the cycle will take longer depending on temps as B-B does not grow much at all in real cold water.
So at this time of year paigents will be the key to healthy pond and fish.

Ruben
 

crsublette

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Good advice i've read here so far.

Here's my 2 cents. :)

First, is that enough water flow for fish.
Fish care about water without poisonous toxins (i.e., ammonia, nitrite) as possible. Flow rate don't matter much to them. There is a new design of ponds called the "stream flow or river" designed ponds where the pond's water volume is actually turned over 10 times per hour or higher (i.e., a 2000 gal pond with 20,000gph). I have not read yet about any harm to fish in these designs.

Second, do I need activated carbon in my filters?
Nope, only if you want. Carbon does eventually disentegrate releasing toxins back into the water so be sure you change it out on occassionally, as recommened by the manufacturer.


Third, how long do I wait to add fish to the pond?
Depends on the organic load of your pond and the bacteria already present. Takes time for Nature's filtration to be created. In the most optimal conditions where water is a constant 70~72*F temp and ph 7.8~8.4 and minimal salinity, then I have seen ponds be ready for a huge load of fish within 3~5 days. Otherwise, if you add more fish than the filtration can handle, then a buildup of toxins will occur so then you need to chemically neutralize them or remove some fish.

Slowly add your fish. Number depends on the pond. Generally, I would go by the .5 inch of fish per 10 gallon of water at the beggining. Once you know your filtration is established, then put in more fish. You will know your filter is established once you read 0ppm total ammonia and 0ppm nitrite. Personally, I would wait at least a week until you decide to add the next batch of fish.

Test your water. If your water is too soft, that is around below 6.5 pH, then the fish is not going to do well at all. Generally, if you do not want a pH crash to kill your fish, then buff soft water up to around at least 7.4~7.6. I have read many aquaponic systems keeping pH at 7.0~7.2, except these are very controlled ponds often found inside a greenhouse. I am told Phoenix has very hard water, that is above 8.4 pH, so you'll probably be ok. I would double check for sure, test the water.

I love all the info on the filters. Last night, after your comments, I started running the pump out of a 55 gallon barrel and into my two filters and then back into the barrel just to check flow. I can run one or both filters without overflowing. It does utilize the enitre openings of the (2) 1.5" outlets and the 2" outlet when only one filter is used.
Side note. Think about the "dwell time" of the water. For a filter like yours, you would want something like a 3~5 minute "dwell time"; for example, do the math to figure out what it would take for your pumps to flow 35 gallons (or whatever the volume of your bio-filter) of water within 3~5 minutes through the container.

From what I've learned, the concept of "dwell time" is mutually exclusive on the design of the filter. The idea is to make sure the bacteria consumes all the toxins and to make sure all of the old water gets pushed out with new water. I think this is still controversial, but it should be something to consider. If your filter does not appear to be doing well, then divert the flow so to slow down the flow through your bio-filter.

According to the ERIC, which is very subjectively claimed to be the "best filter in the world", he recommends a pond turnover rate of one time every 2.5~3.5 hours, which is around a 3~5 minute dwell time, through the bio-filter.

According to the anoxic filtration, which is very subjectively claimed to be the "holy grail of filters", he recommends any flow rate as long as the incoming water is properly diffused, slowing down the water's entrance into, through the bio-filter.

It is important to keep your bio-medium clean of debris so you can attempt to make it to be fluidized with a very strong areator diffusor to try to simulate a moving bed, or fluidized bio-filter.

Point I'm trying to make here is all filtration will work to varying degrees and all have their limitations to varying degrees. Yet, everyone seems to have show quality koi made possible with "their" filtration. One thing that these filters do not change is the fact of how bacteria are made to work according to the rules of nature and everyone believes their filter allows for the optimal efficiency work place for these bacteria or they are just simply satisfied with what they have.

"Proper mechanical filtration prior to bio-filters and proper regular cleanouts of the mechanical filtration" seem to be the one universal rule out there I have seem to read thus far. Still, opinions on mechanical filtration quality prior to bio-filtration is just as varied as it is on bio-filters.

Of course, there are those folk that have the "absolutely perfect, everything always remains perfect", filtration systems.

Ultimately, if you are having problems, then the fact remains in the organics or toxins residing in the water, your water's chemistry, and your filtration methodology. This has never changed, so far, from what I have read and understand, .

So, GreatDanesDad, I am hoping for the best in your endeavors. You chose a very interesting, a very passionate hobby. :) And be prepared for the very diverse forums of advice :goldfish:
 
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First, is that enough water flow for fish.
Yes, depending on the number and size of fish. One Goldfish you wouldn't need any pump at all. 10 Koi and you'd need to go to even greater lengths.

Second, do I need activated carbon in my filters?
Probably not, unless there's something specific you're trying to remove. Each kind of filter does something. It's best to start with what you need to remove and then decide on a type of filter.

Third, how long do I wait to add fish to the pond? I intend on a few gold fish, and a few Koi. Only 2000 gallons, I don’t think I need a lot of fish, and for a first time pond builder doing it on the cheap.
Fish can be added right away if the chlorine is handled. However, that milky color from the gravel is harmful to fish. It's like sand or dust in our eyes, only it's their gills it irritates. It will settle pretty fast, but I'd pump all the water out, clean the gravel again and repeat as often as needed. Or remove the gravel entirely. That's just me. Fish will probably survive however.

Other considerations, I am in the Phoenix area, and am worried about the temperature of the water in the summer. The pond is 80% shaded, and 5ft deep in the deepest area. Anything else recommended to help with temperature. My neighbor adds ice blocks in July Aug and September, thoughts on that?
This has also been my biggest concern in designing my first pond in Phoenix. I've been asking everyone I can about the temp of their ponds here in Phoenix. Unfortunately most people never test the temp and instead say things like "it's fine", "it never gets too hot" or tell me something like 86F only to find out they never tested and just made up a number. But here's a guy who sounds like he actually did take at least some readings. He's seeing 96-98F water temps in Aug in deep ponds.

Deeper is of course better, but not as good as I think most people think. This desert thing is way different. In most areas you dig down 4' and the temp is 50-55F, here it's more like 72F. Plus in some areas I've dug down 3' and it's bone dry and dry soil transfers heat even less well than damp soil which also doesn't transfer heat very well.

The design I just settled on will be 100% shade in summer and open to sun in winter. I'll use trickle water change to deal with nitrates.

I think adding ice is basically insane. I don't know the size of the pond or amount of ice added but I'll bet he's not testing the temp. Taking some rough numbers, say 2000 gal pond at 95F and you add 166 blocks of ice at 10 lbs each (that's about 200 gals of ice). That would drop the water temp to about 88F. That's some shortcut math, but I think in the ballpark. And of course the temp would start going right back up. So to keep the water at say 88F you'd have to add about, I don't know, around $400 a week. Plus you'd have to deal with the new water.

In the far east some people use chillers, basically a refrigerator.
 

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