Bead Filters

[ed2]

Hi all,

I was just wondering what your opinions are on bead filters? The thing is that I have never even looked twice because they're all £500 plus generally. Can somebody explain why they work and if they're worth having? The reason I ask is I have potentially just secured a Compact Sieve pond sieve and an Elecra Powerbead PB85 filter... For £75!! Obviously second hand and I've enquiried about the age and condition.

Now I have a choice. I have a 5500lph pump and I was thinking that I could use this to pump water into the sieve for mechanical filtration, then I would have a slightly more powerful pump with a float switch (stealing the design off here I believe...) to pump the water through the bead filter and finally into my large gravel and veggie filter. How would that sound?

The other option is to sell the bead filter (I expect at a profit?!) and keep the sieve. I wouldn't have to buy a new pump and could simply pump feed the sieve which would then gravity feed into the bog. I believe this would probably give me enough mechanical and bio filtration without the head filter?

The other option is that I use the bead filter until I set up a new pond and use the bead filter on that?


Thanks,

Ed

 

[Waterbug]

Can somebody explain why they work and if they're worth having?

Sieve removes large particles from the water column 24/7 so it has little chance to decompose into tiny bits which is harder to remove and clouds water and increases DOC levels. Basically a self cleaning mechanical filter. Until they design fish that don't poo I can't see a better mechanical filter ever being developed.

Bead filters were an incredible breakthrough when first developed. Everyone wanted one. Lot's of DIY designs followed. The breakthrough was that a single filter could do bio filtering due to the high surface area of the beads. And it could also do mechanical filtering that was easy to clean. For many years these were considered top of the line filters. Slowly, better filters quietly replaced bead filters in higher end ponds. Now you really only see them in ponds where the keeper doesn't really know much about how ponds work. They still sell there for the same reason the sold well originally, they sound logical, like they should work.

The problem is the same it has always been with all combo filters...bacteria don't do well when covered in muck, silt, dust, whatever you want to call it. When covered they can't get at the ammonia, nitrites, O2, etc., they need. In a pond where the bio filter is actually needed (most water gardens don't need them at all) it was not acceptable for the bio filter to work less and less well the longer it went without cleaning. Manufacturers started to come out with timers to clean the filter at set times, some times once or twice a day. That gets to be a lot of water being dumped, and really the problem remained.

When single purpose bio filters like trickle tower, shower, and moving bed came along the poor bead filter started to only be use as pre filters. Then when sieves became known to keepers the bead filters even lost the pre filtering job. Some people still like to have a big cool looking filter system, and seeing the poo dumped by throwing a switch. For them the hobby is about the filters and the pond is only needed to make filter collecting seem less foolish. I'm not throwing stones.

BTW, moving bed filters are exactly the same as a bead filter that is in the process of being cleaned. So it's really easy to convert a bead filter into a great moving bed filter. I don't know your fish load, so don't know if you actually need it...but if you had the sieve, then a moving bed you'd have current state of the art imo.

 

[ed2]

Hi there and thanks for the information! It's nice to get a matter-of-fact explanation, as most of the info is from people who love them or from those you are selling them, both I tend not to trust after falling into the trap of a pressurised filter and finding they're not really great.

My pond is approx 10,000 litres with a gravel filter that is about 30-35% of my pond volume and at the moment has no prefilter system, which I know is bad but I can't afford to buy one at the moment (until I found a sieve for £25!!).

Am I correct to assume the water would need to be pumped from the sieve and into the bead filter? Would there be much point in having the pump>sieve>pump>moving bed filter conversion>gravel and vegetation filter>pond?

My pond - approx 10,000 litres, has currently got 6 x 12" ghost koi, 1 x 8" ghost koi, 1 x 8" mirror carp, 2 medium sized goldfish and 2 small goldfish. The fish are currently being fed once a day. I plan to, in the near future, stock the pond with some of my koi I'm raising and to up the feeding from June to several times a day, maybe up to 6 times as I'm moving home from uni!

So at the moment, I wouldn't consider my stocking level to be too heavy?

Thanks,

Ed

 

[Waterbug]

I would consider the "near future" version to be a heavy fish load. It's partly the number and size of fish, but amount fed is just as important. Normally I'd say forget the moving bed, but not in your case.

My preference is pond->sieve->bog->pump->moving bed. In that setup the pond overflows so you don't need a floating weir sieve. Even if yours already has one, not HAVING to have one is a good thing imo as these sometimes stick. The floating weir is the only downside to sieves so I like to eliminate its need.

There's something to be said for isolating the bog from the pond in case you have to treat the pond. Tricky to setup but the bog would only need a very small pump. I like bogs a lot for the type of ponds I create, water gardens. But for heavy fish load ponds bogs really start to lose appeal and generally are more a problem than a plus. They're not great in heavy loads for converting ammonia and nitrites and so they're left to handle nitrates. But with heavy loads you're going to be doing water changes and that will handle nitrates. Assuming the pond will have a UV the only thing the bog is left to do for you is add DOCs which isn't good.

I'd completely isolate the bog from the pond and use it only to take overflow from the pond. Add trickle water change to the pond which is why the overflow is needed. This would require adding another tank/pond to hold the pump, or creating a section in the bog for this.

Last thing is whether this pond has a bottom drain and TPRs. Without that the sieve doesn't really help much. Removing fish poo is the issue in heavy loads.

 

[ed2]

Thank you again, that advice is brilliant!

Ok, basically my problem is that I'm a student and I am on a very tight budget now indeed. However, I have now managed to acquire the following equipment today:

• 30W UVC
• 7,000 lph solids handling pump with float switch x 2
• Vortex filter chamber
• Mechanical filter chamber with brushes
• Compact sieve unit
• Powerbead PB85 bead filter

I currently have:

• Hozelock Titan 5500lph Pump
• Blagdon Cyclone 10000 Pressurised Filter
• Haliea 3000lph inline or submersible pump
• Waterproof/weatherproof switch box
• 3500 litre capacity gravel filter

The pond is located below the gravel filter in order to allow it to gravity feed back into the pond via a waterfall. There is no bottom drain and I don't think I would be able to add one but could consider buying a retro-fit one. It would only be able to run off the 3,000lph pump though.

Unfortunately I cannot afford to spend more money than I have already done, so could you suggest a system using this set up? It would be really difficult for me to change the bio filter from being gravity feed return to the pond if I'm honest and I don't think my parents would be happy after forking out on this expense only for me to suggest it had been wrong



Would this work?

System 1: Hozelock Titan 5500lph Pump > Sieve > Gravity Feed to Gravel/Plant Filter > Waterfall > Pond
Along With: Retrofit Bottom Drain > Same Sieve > Gravity Feed to Gravel/Plant Filter > Waterfall > Pond

System 2: 6000lph Pump > 30W UVC > Same Sieve > 6000lph Pump (with float switch - to take water back out of sieve) > Bead Filter > Waterfall > Pond

Autofill: Automatic water change 10% daily into pond via waterfall to mix hose water with filtered



Obviously I appreciate that this wouldn't be the most ideal to have two different loops/filters but it would perhaps be a good way to use what I have without being wasteful?

 

[ed2]

Sorry, just an update, I have now bought an Oase Aquamax Gravity 10000lph and the same pump in 5500lph too! Not bad for £20 and these are now available as an addition!


Regards,

Ed

 

[Waterbug]

Pump to sieve...kind of defeats the purpose. Pump chops crap into bits, much of which is smaller than the sieve will remove. We're talking about poo, very soft.

If the pump with the float valve in the sieve fails what happens? Drained pond?

Daily 10% water change is great. Water must be cheap there Mr Student. Is this going to be a trickle water change? Are you going to have an overflow? Or are you going to pump water out of the pond to remove extra water? That's a great method.

If you're serious about 10% daily water change the rest of your system can get really simple. You probably don't need the UV, sieve or bottom drain. Pumping 10% of your water out of the pond bottom daily will make the bottom spotless. No issue with grinding up poo either. I doubt you'd even need the moving bed filter, but given your expected fish load I'd keep it.

 

[ed2]

So you think the water changes could be something? I could easily set up a timer switch to drain 10% approx in the evening and then have an auto hose on a float valve to refill?

It would be fine for me because luckily we pay a set amount for the water here and not based on amount used (I wish electricity was the same lol!).

How about the chlorine? Am I right to think 10% a day would too little to harm the fish?


Thanks,

Ed

 

[Waterbug]

Everyone would be doing 10% daily water changes if they could afford it, lived where water use wasn't an issue, and understood ponds. It solves many problems.

I wouldn't use an auto hose float valve to fill. They fail, and kill fish. Plus too much chlorinated water at one time. Just turn on the hose a bit, measure in a bucket the rate, and just let it run 24/7. Or use a drip emitter head which are rated for a set number of gallons per hour.

I would add the water so it goes through as much of the bog as possible. Just safer to me.

For the timer to remove 10%...I'd add a second pump that came on at the same time, or a little before. It's output would stay in the pond and only job would be to get a current going so the pond bottom would sweep poo to the pump out. This is called a Tangential Pond Return, or TPR if you want to Google. Once you set up the TPR pump you'll be able to see debris collecting at a single point on the bottom, like a tornado. That tells you where to place the pump out pump.

Here's a guy with a lot of experience in the kind of high fish load pond you'd have. He talks about chlorine starting at 7:30.

Here's Dr Eric from Koi Beginner.

 

[ed2]

Thank you again,

All of this info is so greatly received and it's good to know I am getting the right way towards getting the pond management correct! I will have a look for definite at the second pump on a timer to cause the whirlpool effect. Would it perhaps be better to put that on say 30 minutes before I set the other pump to throw out 10%?

Of course, the other option could be to lose 5% from a pump on a timer and 5% daily backflushes of the filter?

My other thought was that I could do the 10% water change by chucking out 1% at a time, 10 times a day... Run the whirlpool pump and drain pump for X amount of time every 2 and a half hours, and just have the water trickling from a hose at the correct rate on the inlet of the filter?


Regards,

Ed

 

[ed2]

Right I've watched both videos and a few more as well from their respective websites. The vet chap suggests trickling water to achieve 15% change in a week. Can it be increased safely to more than this?

My system is going to be a drip irrigation hose to the veggie filter inlet to aid dechlorination and to take the chemicals out and I will set a timer to pump the water to collect the debris (I imagine like a vortex but in the pond? I will check the info out now...) then have the water run out of the pond for the required time and constant have it refilling via the drip irrigation system


Regards,

Ed

 

[Waterbug]

All of this info is so greatly received and it's good to know I am getting the right way towards getting the pond management correct!

Maybe, maybe not. I know a little about ponds, but nothing about your pond. Sounds like you're checking out the info you're getting for yourself which is super. Stay skeptical.

Would it perhaps be better to put that on say 30 minutes before I set the other pump to throw out 10%?

If you can see the bottom of the pond you'll know by trying. When I use just a garden hose it only takes maybe a minute to see a little tornado of crap in the middle of the pond bottom. It's possible a higher flow might not even get the desired results.

Of course, the other option could be to lose 5% from a pump on a timer and 5% daily backflushes of the filter?

What filter? The bead filter? If you're pumping that amount of water from a pond bottom I don't know what a bead filter would do. Pretty marginal I should think. But I've got an imaginary pond in my head.

My other thought was that I could do the 10% water change by chucking out 1% at a time, 10 times a day... Run the whirlpool pump and drain pump for X amount of time every 2 and a half hours, and just have the water trickling from a hose at the correct rate on the inlet of the filter?

Sounds like a good plan.

 

[Waterbug]

The vet chap suggests trickling water to achieve 15% change in a week. Can it be increased safely to more than this?

Sure. But it depends on how you do it, your pond, etc. You can use a chlorine test kit to confirm how things are working. Dr Eric is talking to beginners with small fish loads, so 15% would be a huge improvement for most of those ponds. Andy Moo says 10% per day is optimal as he is talking to people with very high fish loads.

I'd certainly check out the source water. If it's really soft there can be issues. People are told to test their pond water. 10% changes means the water coming out of the tap is your pond water.

My system is going to be a drip irrigation hose to the veggie filter inlet to aid dechlorination and to take the chemicals out and I will set a timer to pump the water to collect the debris (I imagine like a vortex but in the pond? I will check the info out now...) then have the water run out of the pond for the required time and constant have it refilling via the drip irrigation system

Sounds like a good plan. The chlorine is going to find a lot of organic matter to react with in the veggie filter. And yes, a vortex in the pond. The pond is the vortex filter.

One last warning...you're depending on the pump timer...if it doesn't switch off you're screwed. Going with 2 pumps you'd probably need 2 timers. I'd use them in series. I'd plug the pump out pump timer into the timer for the vortex pump. Both timers would have to fail shutoff for your pond to be pumped dry.

 

[ed2]

That's amazing advice, thank you so much for your time and effort!

I have ordered a 2 lph drip irrigation system and it can have up to 30 outlets to allow irrigation or up to 30lph.

I have also thought about potentially having one larger pump than the current 5500lph working. I figured I could have the aquamax 10,000lph connected to a T connector? One outlet to the pump and the other as a constant jet to form a constant vortex? Then just have one timer plug going to another timer plug and then to the drain out pump as a back up as your suggested safety mechanism. How would that sound?

I have looked on eBay and could buy a carbon filter or reverse osmosis unit but I have read that the ROs require quite high flow rates whereas the carbon filter wouldn't. I have emailed my water board to ask them whether they use chlorine or chloramine as this apparently makes a massive difference to whether or not you need to use carbon filters. I'll let you know what they say and I will get a better test kit ASAP and do a chlorine, O2, kh and gh, along with the other values when I can.

The other thing is that I have decided if I get some nice fish from my fry I am goin to sell most of the large ghost carp and the two 12" golden orfe (I forgot about them!) once the koi are ready for my pond. The ghosties are nice but not nice enough to just have 7 of them in place of some nice koi, that's just madness to me and plus I'm looking forwards to the challeng of growing some reasonable koi like Andy talks about in that video

 

[Waterbug]

I have also thought about potentially having one larger pump than the current 5500lph working. I figured I could have the aquamax 10,000lph connected to a T connector? One outlet to the pump and the other as a constant jet to form a constant vortex?

Not sure I followed...if you mean use a single pump to do both vortex and remove water? Doesn't sound that great to me. The single pump will grind poo and spit out some back into the pond. I'd use the 5500 for the vortex and the 10000 for pump out. Unless the vortex wasn't strong enough and then I'd switch them.

I have looked on eBay and could buy a carbon filter or reverse osmosis unit but I have read that the ROs require quite high flow rates whereas the carbon filter wouldn't. I have emailed my water board to ask them whether they use chlorine or chloramine as this apparently makes a massive difference to whether or not you need to use carbon filters.

You might want to search Koiphen for better info than I can provide on using carbon filter or reverse osmosis on your source water. Koiphen can be a very good source of info for the kind of pond you're looking to have. You're in a very unique position being able to do that large a water change. For example I'd normally keep KH high because my primary goal is to keep fish alive. But you could run with low KH, low pH and have an optimal Koi pond. Some people think the Koi colors are better at lower KH and pH, especially white.

Koiphen would be a better forum for you imo. I've just given some basic info. I've never kept a pond like what you're thinking of. On Koiphen you'll run into many more people keeping ponds more like yours.

I will get a better test kit ASAP and do a chlorine, O2, kh and gh, along with the other values when I can.

Good. Warning, testing O2 requires an expensive device.