Bacteria, Autumn, process?

[brokensword]

Not sure if I should post this in the winterizing section or not, so...


I've searched a bit but not really found much involving the process of 'what happens in the fall when the bacteria dies but your fish are still active (albeit in less quantity) in the pond'.

That is, if the bacteria dies when the temps fall below 50 but the fish are probably still somewhat active eating algae etc, what is going to process the buildup of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates? Especially if most of the plants have died back and gone dormant? I do have some hornwort as oxygenators; will that plant take care of the buildup, smaller load though it may be? I'm sure this is similar to what happens in the spring, before the plants really get going, right?

What happens in a natural pond without pumps and mechanical filtration; the buildup of debris, waste must be tremendously higher than in a backyard pond (if there's a proper balance between animal/flora load and water volume/surface area).

I understand that the gases build up and must be released during winter: same process here? The fish are still going to be eating something until then and of course, providing a waste load at the same time, so...just wondering.

Anyway, just thought I'd ask the experts here as I'm not finding much on the net.



Thanks!


Michael

 

[Shdwdrgn]

Well I'm no expert on the matter, but this is what happens in my pond... I always keep the pump running through the Winter because I feel that moving water is absolutely critical to keeping up the high oxygen levels needed in the Winter. I have also always kept my waterfall running because the splashing also contributes to oxygenating the water, and keeping holes open in the ice.

As for the lack of bacteria and subsequent build-up of waste, I generally flush my skippy filter sometime after the fish have gone dormant, and then again in the Spring once they start getting active again. This seems to keep the system clear enough that the fish do not have any troubles. The worst period of time for me has always been in the early Spring, when the fish are getting active and the temperatures are starting to come up again, but the water hasn't quite reached high enough for the bacteria to really kick in. During this period I will usually flush the skippy every couple weeks to clear out the really black stuff. And this period of time is also the worst for algae build-up. No lilies yet for shade, little or no new plant growth yet to suck up the nutrients, so the algae just takes off like crazy, and all I can do is wait for the water temperature to come up another 10 degrees.

Oh yes, one more thing... The 50-degree mark is not a hard limit, it's just a general guideline and varies a lot depending on your location. For instance, I'm at high altitude, so the sunshine is a bit more intense. My fish actually continue eating down to about 40 degrees, and my filter seems to continue working well in the Fall until it gets around 40, but in the Spring the bacteria doesn't start back up again until 50 degrees. Your area may have different strains of bacteria, and your fish may respond differently to the temperatures. Just watch what happens and make a note of the conditions so you have an idea of what to expect the next year.

 

[brokensword]

Thanks for replying, Shdwdrgn.

I should have been more specific with my setup, though your answer probably helps more folks. I have a bog as my filter and so, if the bacteria die (actually, I've since read that their activity is decreased and ceases at 32 degrees), what is doing the actual breakdown of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates? Is is a matter of 'not much buildup because not much waste'?

I have to assume something is going on or I'd see many instances of dead fish down the road at the neighborhood natural pond. The only issue I've ever seen is when the ice is solid the entire winter and the gases can't escape; we had a scary number of large, dead fish this last spring.


So for those with a bog, any idea what is going on (in a more natural process?). Also, the pipes which take the pump water to the bog; they're buried so what is the risk that water in these freeze and split/break? Not like I can easily remove and drain. The water level will settle in the tube at the bog's own water level though it will be 'open' above as I disconnect the pump later. Any thoughts? (Addy??)

I did come across an article/advertisement for 'a strain of cold hardy' bacteria, but I think this may be more gimmick and probably our ponds already have what is needed, but that's why I'm asking.


Any help would be appreciated.


Michael

 

[baeya]

I'm not sure if this helps, but I might as well kick in my little thought..... I've had my pond for 8 years in Central New York. The pond is 6500 gallons, 4 feet deep on one end and 3 on the other. We keep air bubbling and a de-icer going all winter. In the Fall, when the water temperature gets low, the fish will actually stop eating.......so we stop feeding. Their metabalism slows way down and they pretty much 'hibernate'. I don't think there would be much, if any, ammonia to accumulate through the Winter.......at least not enough to hurt anything.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, fellow members....

 

[Shdwdrgn]

baeya - That pretty much sums it up. No food equals no waste, so even the basic mechanical filtration of the filter is enough to keep the water cleared up. The worst concern you have in the Winter is ammonia caused by decomposing plant matter - mostly leaves off the trees. I believe any churning of the water, from waterfalls or air bubblers, makes a huge difference in this, as it helps any ammonia in the water evaporate out faster.

brokensword - You might also look into what kind of native plants you have growing around streams and ponds in your area. I primarily use moneywort (creeping jenny) as ground cover around my pond, and surprisingly any of the plant which is in or near the water stays green all Winter. It will even freeze into the ice for up to a month and keep growing. This gives me a huge advantage in the Winter, as the plant roots continue to clean the water. The hornwort you have will help with this, but you might look for other plants as well that will grow in and around the water and remain somewhat active during the Winter.

 

[brokensword]

Thanks for further discussion, Baeya & Shdwdrgn.

I realize the fish are going to slow down, but I have to imagine SOME feeding is going on until the temps bring the water low enough that no more feeding occurs. THAT'S what I was wondering. And as Shdwdrgn shows, there's going to be more load from nature in the form of plant dieback and decomposing leaves than from the fish. I like the idea of having plants that stay green and their possible nutrient filtering that lasts until they're truly dormant; I'll look into some of those. I was going to see about transplanting some of my creeping jenny in any event--this just gives me more reason.

As I have my pond enclosed, I don't get any falling leaves--just the normal dieback from the water plants. Anyway, thanks for giving me some insight here.

Michael

 

[fishin4cars]

Ask this question on three different forums and I'll bet you get three completely different answers. So here is mine, Fact, fish still eat well after the temp drops below 50 degrees, and yes they keep producing waste. Fact, bacteria do go dormant, which ones and what temp. is a argument that has been taking place for several years. It's known some start dying off at 50 degrees, but I've heard some can live below 32 degrees, some go dormant and don't do anything and some completely die off. (So how do they return??) The hole in the ice is for gas exchange for the waste that is either in the pond breaking down, or still being put off by the fish. This is why you ONLY want to feed Wheat germ after the water starts reaching 50 degrees but the fish are still actively eating, It breaks down easier, less ammonia, purges the fishes intesinal trac, and it helps greatly in slowing not only the fishes metabolism but the bacteria in the bio as well. wheat germ also contains bacteria that assist in breaking down waste.
Some people may not realise but bacteria in a pond or any filtered body of water will grow on anything that remains wet, can get oxygen, and has any waste to feed on. So your filter isn't the only place waste gets broken down, just larger colonies. When we shut filters down all waste settles to the deepest points, backflushing your filter several times greatly reduce the chances of anerobic growth, (The bad bacteria's) but they can still take place in the bottom of the pond, If possible a good vacumn or suction from the bottom of the pond prior to the temp. drop is a good idea, remember leaves, waste, algae, plant matter, and even if a fish dies it too will be slowly eaten away, (So to me, IMO there is still some biological activety taking place) Anything that can be removed before the shut down will help the over winter breakdown proscess. The less that takes place the less chance for algae bloom the following spring. Rocks in the bottom is where a lot of gunk igets trapped and why ponds with rocks on the bottom usually have the hardest time with algae blooms in the spring. Areation helps provide oxygen to help the process, it helps the gases escape, and it brings slightly warmer water to the surface.
I'm lucky in ways, as 99% of the time I can leave my pumps and filters operating, so I'm still mechanically cleaning the pond, BUT I have to be careful because the fish will become active and start searching for food at 40-50 degrees, which can take place all winter here. NO FOOD! Feeding my fish, Oh and they will eat! causes large spikes in ammonia, causes internal infections, can cause bloating, and wrecks havoc with the algae bloom in the spring. The one thing I can say with certainty, Feed wheat germ for about two to three weeks prior to stop feeding, keep as much muck cleared out of the system as possible,bottom, filter, streams, waterfalls etc. keep some type of water movement from the bottom to the top of the pond, via pump, or air, and make sure all your water quality parametrs are in good shape for the winter over, Kind of hard to test water in the winter! Take these precautions and you should be fine through the winter.
BTW, on the bog, if you can find plants that will continue growing during the winter they too will continue to help breakdown waste, here, iris, parrots feather, anachris, hornwort, and moneywort continue growing through-out the winter.

 

[brokensword]

fishin:
kinda thought this might be the case as I've come across very little in the way of explaining what is happening between seasons.  Easy to understand summer and winter, but the autumn, when everything slows down, brings a new dynamic.  Or maybe just a leaner one, hey?
Re the bog; if I turn off the pump in the pond (which I'll be doing when I see the temps demand I begin the water temp inversion process as I don't want to turn over 'warmer' water with colder), it means any 'filtering' of the pond is gone because there is now no direct connection between bog and pond, hence my question.  Sort of figured that the balance of bacteria still on the job and the amount of waste being produced (as prob the decaying leaves also process slower) remains doable.  So, I've relaxed a bit.  And since my pond is 'covered', there will only be the amount of debris from my pond plants (that is, the leaves I don't get to in time and those that head toward the bottom--which won't be many), so I have less to worry about in that regard.
I've been feeding the fish the wheat based food since mid-September, so I think I'm on the right path in that regard.
Re the plants; I have many of those you mention, but being in the North, I don't think they'll be active much beyond our first freeze, which could come as early as the first week of October, but is more normally toward the middle/end of the month.  Still, I do have a cattail and there is the hornwort that should be semi-active as long as the sun shines and the temps stay near 50.  
Re the water movement; I plan on keeping the aerator going all winter, so there is some, though the stone is only 2' down and not near the bottom.  As I start to clean up the dying hyacinths/water lettuce and trim the water lilies, I'll look to see how much 'muck' is on the bottom and get what I can.  No rocks in my pond, so that job should be easier, even so.
Thanks for contributing to the discussion, fishin; was starting to wonder if I'd uncovered some sort of taboo topic as there sure isn't much when I google.
Could you give me your opinion re the bog piping?  I'm wondering if I'm going to have problems with the tube that is buried beneath the bog as it WILL have some water in it, at least bog-water-height.  Being open above, is it going to freeze in a way that damage is going to occur?  I suppose it wouldn't be horrendous as any split will still be IN the bog, but I'd like to keep this from happening if possible.   I'm using the flexible, 1 1/2" pvc from the pump to the bog, with a tee inserted midline for the waterfall, which will be open and thus, break any water retention in the 'upper' line, allowing the water to fall back into both the pond and bog.  I can take out the line for the pond, but as mentioned; the bog run is buried under 3' of gravel.  I was hoping Addy might comment, but maybe this part of my question got lost in the verbiage above, hey????  heh....
Thanks, fishin, and if you can help me with the plumbing query, thanks again.
Michael

 

[fishin4cars]

honestly, I think Addy or someone further north may be able to help more on that topic. LOL My biggest worry is my water hose that layes directly on the ground. I have a auto water leveler and have to remember to disconnect it or drain the water out if the temps drop below 32. I've forgetten and ended up with a 7$ split garden hose but that's the worst issue I've had so for as far as freezing pipes. I know it gets quite colder up where your from, We are just now getting waters cooler and the fish are enjoying! checked it today and the water temp is still 79. , It will be late Nov. or Dec before I have to completely stop feeding, You'll most likely be frozen over by that point.

 

[addy1]

Could you give me your opinion re the bog piping? I'm wondering if I'm going to have problems with the tube that is buried beneath the bog as it WILL have some water in it, at least bog-water-height. Being open above, is it going to freeze in a way that damage is going to occur? I suppose it wouldn't be horrendous as any split will still be IN the bog, but I'd like to keep this from happening if possible. I'm using the flexible, 1 1/2" pvc from the pump to the bog, with a tee inserted midline for the waterfall, which will be open and thus, break any water retention in the 'upper' line, allowing the water to fall back into both the pond and bog. I can take out the line for the pond, but as mentioned; the bog run is buried under 3' of gravel. I was hoping Addy might comment, but maybe this part of my question got lost in the verbiage above, hey???? heh....
Thanks, fishin, and if you can help me with the plumbing query, thanks again.
Michael

Sorry I was so slow in seeing your questions, must have missed this one, been distracted by the heron, it is consuming my time right now........lol

I don't get as cold as you, but we do freeze, down to zero and lower at times. Last winter, very little snow coverage, all we did was turn off the pump. We do not drain the bog, the plants need the moisture even when it is cold, or they will all die. Our bog lines are under the pea gravel about 2.5 feet down. We had around 2 feet of 2 inch pvc sticking out with water in it. This pipe was open on one end, above bog water level, the pipe did not freeze. In the spring we just hooked the pump up and turned everything back on.

In summary your bog piping should be just fine.

Last year we let the pond freeze solid (the deer were walking on it), but at that time we only had 4 fish, that we did not even know where there. This year have a ton more, so will keep a hole in the ice.

 

[taherrmann4]

I think you will be fine. Your bog being 3' deep the pipes in the bottom will be fine and the pipe that feeds to those pipes that sticks out of the bog should be ok as well. In my skimmer I have a 2" pvc pipe that comes from the bottom of the skimmer which is about 2 feet below ground up to my external pump, this pipe sticks out of the ground about 2 feet and I have had no issues whatsoever with it. My pond will freeze completely over in the winter with the exception of an air hole where my bubbler is.

If you are concerned about it freezing you could try getting a small airstone and dropping it in the pipe, you would have to get a small enough one to fit in the 1.5" pipe and be sure it does not come disconnected from the tube that comes from your aerator. That could cause you some problems.

 

[brokensword]

Thanks Addy and TA for getting back to this thread; good to know I don't have to worry about the open bog supply line. I wondered if possibly because the water has room to move (up and down) that the pipe might be okay.

I'll be doing what you're doing TA, in that I'm going to have the bubbler keep a hole open. This will be my first winter with a pond, so the learning experience should be eye-opening!

Thanks everyone, for the help!


Michael